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Originally Posted by Pyrotex
Does that make more sense?
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Yes, your comments make sense, but the question is, are they an accurate representation of the relationship of the Mind and Map to the Territory ? It would appear that Korzybski places the Mind within the Map, I take the opposite view. I hold the Map to be within the Mind. My reason is because Korzybski gives a very specific and limited function to the Map--e.g., to form a 'replica of the Territory', and it is not logical that a thing that performs a more general function (the Mind) should be a part of a thing that performs a specific function (the Map). But there is another logical reason why Korzybski's view cannot hold, for as you say,
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Originally Posted by Pyrotex
The Map exists, but it is not real.
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thus it is not possible for a thing that is real (the Mind) to be within a thing that is not real (the Map). So, I conclude that the Map has a limited function of information transformation and thus is not real and this process is within a larger entity, the Mind, that is real.
The Mind is not a simple place, and it is now documented experimentally that there is a difference between the Unconscious and Conscious aspects of the Mind--they are two different identities with completely different functions. For example, it is known that perception is first filtered by the Unconscious aspect of the Mind, and there is ~ 500 ms delay until the information passes to the Conscious aspect of the Mind, which is where concepts are formed. This type of delay makes sense, because it is the role of the Consciousness to integrate ALL of the sensory inputs to form concepts, and it takes the Unconscious some time to get all the information together to form the replica. So the flow of infromation is from (1) ontological elements (Territory) ---> (2) senses ----> (3) Unconsciousness (the Mapping simulation process to form replica) ---> ~500 ms delay---> (4) Consciousness (the process of taking the replica to form concepts).
Here is one short review of relevant research:
Freud: he wasn’t all wrong - The National Newspaper
The Map process (the "making the replica of reality" ) can be thought of as being within a larger room, and the room is the Mind. So, the Mind has an area off to the side where the process 'make a replica simulation of reality' exists (what Korzybski calls the Map making area). But on the other side of the room is the area where the process 'regulate the beat of the heart' exists, and so on with more processes than we know. Where Korzybski appears to error is that he assumes that the all the functions of the Mind are related to Mapping, to forming simulations of existence, but this clearly is not so, the Mind is much more complex, it has many functions not related to simulation.
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Originally Posted by Pyrotec
If you start putting Consciousness (self-awareness) outside the Map, then you might as well put it physically outside the brain
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In my view Consciousness is within the brain, or at least within groups of neurons. All I am saying is that Korzybski has a much too simplistic view of the relationship of Map and Consciousness to Mind.
In summary, I find that the Consciousness is NOT within the Map, it is within the Mind, off to the side, and these are completely different things indeed, for two are real (Mind and Consciousness) and the other not (Map).
