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.................................................. ..............The Mind "contains" the Map. But equally true, the Map "contains" the Mind.
Penrose and others make the fatal mistake of trying to compare the Mind/Map to other physical paradigms in the Universe. Like quantum mechanics, or digital computers, or a bunch of cells talking to each other.
The Mind/Map entity is unique in the Universe. There ARE NO OTHER paradigms that can be used to explain it.
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Although there is lots to respond to, I want to begin with this.
Through my study of physics and cosmology or cosmological physics, I started to make some similar findings. I believe these would be findings of the territory.
In order for any meaning to occur of any event there must be a relative relationship.
For example: If we travelled to an undisclosed location in the universe where nothing, not even EMR (photons) is detectable from any other sources (imagining there is a place) and we place an object in this location, such as billiard ball (which is only there to represent a reference frame and position) and ask some questions what will we discover?
Note: We the mental observer, does not count as a reference frame.
a)How fast is the billiard ball moving (velocity)?
It is undeterminable, and the question has no meaning.
b)Which direction is the billiard ball moving?
It is undeterminable, " ".
c)What is the kenetic energy of the ball?
d)What point of view were you visualising the billiard ball?
e)What billiad ball? You are the ball.
The point I am trying to bring to light here is that there are some meanings that do no exist when all else is excluded.
Pyrotex you said:
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it must be, because the Mind ONLY has access to the Map. But if your Mind is part of the Map, what's doing the thinking? Is that Mind inside the Map doing the thinking? Then, isn't it accessing an even smaller Map inside the Mind inside the Map???
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Just like the billiard ball, when all else (the map) is removed from the mind, and the mind is all that remains, what does it have access to in order generate reasoning?
The mind and the ball must have a relative relationship.
The billiard ball requires another billiard ball that is in some form detectable and observable to be added in order for certain level of meaning to come into being. Prior to the second ball being added the first ball can have no meaning attributed to it (as long as we stay in the intended boundries and specifics I have set an example of).
The mind must have a map before it can have meaning. The mind can not exist on its own. Which is another way to say meaning (the painting by the mind that is the brush) can not exist in absolute seclusion.
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The Mind is also constructed of Semantons--it is a semantic structure, too. It is a semantic structure that processes semantic structures, and generates Meanings (more semantic structures) for semantic structures.
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This statement is the same as a statement I made earlier only with a different face.
I said, If we define things that exist as things that have the ability to produce an effect on other things that also have an effect on those things that have an effect on other things.
We are essentially making the same point from two different perpectives. The difference being whether we are analyzing the map (your statement) or the territory (my statement).
In either case it appears to me at this time that there is no fundamental singular element that 'declares' it is absolute existence or maybe better said 'produces' absolute existence, neither the mind or a physical object.
As you have helped describe (Pyrotex). The mind is brought into being by a broad spectrum of constructs (non physical structures) that form the
map. Likewise, it seems to me the
territory is brought into being by a broad spectrum of structures that might be made possible by relative relationships.
However, I think it is possible that these two are intimitly connected, and almost inseperable. It may be that it is the mind that creates (the opportunity for) meaning for the territory and it is the territory that creates (the opportunity for) a map.
For whatever reason, be it practice or accident, I have had experiences where I temporarally lost touch with all short term memory. That is, that "I" neither knew or did not know "I" was or was not, nor did "I" experience the notion of time, and in that moment it was neither awhile, no time, or an enternity. And from that I felt confident in concluding that in order to have things exist we must experience the memory (even if it is .05seconds old) in order to experience anything at all, anything that is, that we 'think' is the present. From this I think it is safe to say that it is our ability to contain "the 'mind' map" that produces an experience, that brings forth existence (as we know it).
Whether this gives us any insight for creating more accurate theories on our universe I have no clue.
