How soon will a moneyless society change the way we percieve each other?

[Peacemaker]

Hi Buffy,

Originally Posted by wise one
At least I came up with a suggestion. If you don't agree fine but come up with a decent argument or better still a solution. How would you propose to do it? Or is your little tiny bubble you live in flawless? I think not!

This is the kind of argument that prompted all of my Werner Erhard quotes above: This approach of shaming others by saying "at least *I'm* working for the good of everyone, while you're just making sure that things stay bad" has been popular from Scientology to est to Karl Rove. Its a despicable form of argument and holds no water whatsoever.

(I have to take you to task over this statement Buffy. Whilst those on the receiving end of this type of argument may consider it as 'despicable', it is however, morally correct. Once you fully understand what I am offering to humanity, to argue against it is to argue in favour of most of the bad stuff that happens in the world currently).

If you are going to insist on only "positive" comments being made, then you are disingenuously missing the point: dismissively passing off the key implementation details as "something that we have plenty of smart people who can figure it out" is exactly why most unplanned "great ideas" never go anywhere.

(Again you hark back to this idea that I have to come up with every detail and facet of how this evolution is going to happen. I don't have a crystal ball Buffy. I cannot do everyone's job for them. We have to delegate the 'devils in the detail' to those who have the experience and expertise to deal with them. What I am advocating is the general philosophy and the framework for this evolution. Planning will take place to bring it to fruition. The planning will be undertaken by those qualified to carry it out. Initially elected governments and their departments, and then specialists in their respective specialisations). I have every confidence that my not claiming to know everything will prove no obstacle to this plan flourishing. People tend to have enough common sense to see that everyone will have a role to play).

There is a reason why the old saying "the devil is in the details" is so widely used: its far too often true.

Iraq would be fine if the Democrats didn't want us to fail so badly,
Buffy

[Peacemaker]

Originally Posted by wise one

Hi Everyone,
I have read the 65 page document and have also read all the posts to this thread. Having done so, I am conviced that this is the way forward for mankind. The few points made by bigdog were good but reading the document look like they are easily solved.
Before zero hour, assuming everyone in the world is in general agreement that this is a better way to live, we could use all the money in the world to ensure that everyone has all they need, then implement a structured society whereby everyone knows their role thereby eliminating the need for greed.
Children would still go to school but instead of just teaching them five or six subjects, why not teach them real practical skills. People could continue to learn new skills throughout there lives. Why not have six people doing one job so we only need to do a few hours work each day? Then we could do another job the next day. We would never get bored.
This would also bring back a strong social structure that has sadly been broken down due to advancement in technology. Instead of having one full time job we could all have several part-time jobs. I know I would be happy to collect rubbish for a few hours one day if I could help rescue animals the next.(my dream job)

Those that do not contribute to society will only suffer from guilt. For if they do this it means that they are failing not only themselves but their friends and family. If there are no limits due to money then of course everyone can can have clean water. If engineering allows it, there are no limits. Food could be grown locally in any part of the world again because there are no limits. I can see the frustration of the author because people are looking at it from their own angle and not from the angle of those who are suffering.

I'm not agreeing with everything the author proposes but we live in a democratic society and I certainly don't agree with most of what my priminister proposes for our future.
How can you you say money is one of the best things invented when It can make someone who may have no morals but have an endless amount of money have a better life than a good hard working honest citizen?

This is not a communist dictatorship which is being proposed this is a well structured society where the rewards seem to be endless.

Help yourself by helping others - simple!

Thank you Wise One, you are well named. I hope to hear much more from you on this thread, and would love to discuss the details you disagree with in more detail. It's OK to disagree with the details, I don't claim to be perfect, or have perfect solutions to everything. All I ask is that every decision that is taken, once we evolve, is taken with absolute regard to the basic rules.

Best regards to you and yours,
Peacemaker.

[cslagle]

All,
I think that a book by James Redfeild addresses this theory. It was his book, The Celestine Prophecy , that gave me hope for human evolution toward a greater good. With so many bad happenings in the world, the thought of a moneyless society is uplifting.
His theory was that in the next step of our evolution we will exchange thoughts as currency, instead of money. We will no longer have to work for food production, and other "hard labor" tasks, thanks to computers and new methods. This is evident, even from the last one hundred years, when was the last time you had to spend a few days hunting down dinner? So, we will have more time for the exchange of information, and ideas. We would become a sharing society, as was once the case, when it took a village...
Anyway, I digress. I believe that it is a lovely theory, and I would like to be one of the first to fully incorporate the ideas into my life and progress to this next stage of evolution.
Sincerely,
Carla

[TheBigDog]

Originally Posted by cslagle

All,
I think that a book by James Redfeild addresses this theory. It was his book, The Celestine Prophecy , that gave me hope for human evolution toward a greater good. With so many bad happenings in the world, the thought of a moneyless society is uplifting.
His theory was that in the next step of our evolution we will exchange thoughts as currency, instead of money. We will no longer have to work for food production, and other "hard labor" tasks, thanks to computers and new methods. This is evident, even from the last one hundred years, when was the last time you had to spend a few days hunting down dinner? So, we will have more time for the exchange of information, and ideas. We would become a sharing society, as was once the case, when it took a village...
Anyway, I digress. I believe that it is a lovely theory, and I would like to be one of the first to fully incorporate the ideas into my life and progress to this next stage of evolution.
Sincerely,
Carla

Good luck. The Celestine Prophecy, while an uplifting read, is a work of fantasy. Living life by dropping your impulse control and following strings of coincidences that are the divine path of our souls is a nice way to be a vagrant, but is no way to structure a society where we don't need to labor for anything.

How do you value a thought without some form of money?

Bill

[cslagle]

Originally Posted by TheBigDog

Good luck. The Celestine Prophecy, while an uplifting read, is a work of fantasy. Living life by dropping your impulse control and following strings of coincidences that are the divine path of our souls is a nice way to be a vagrant, but is no way to structure a society where we don't need to labor for anything.

How do you value a thought without some form of money?

Bill

While the Celestine Prophecy is a work of fantasy, the concepts in this uplifting read are based in science. Following strings of coincidences in my life has brought me to a fulfilling job, and great hapiness. This is far from vagrancy. The whole idea of a moneyless society seems to be based on utopia. A place where we value thought without some form of money would surely be utopian. If everyone where ready for this kind of thinking, we would not be having this disscussion. Believing it to be possible is part of what will bring this change about. I don't think it matters yet how we make the change, the fact that so many are considering this idea is enough for now.
As to how soon we will embrace this change. Many other people's thought processes will have to evolve, and I see that happening everyday.

[Cedars]

Originally Posted by cslagle

All,
This is evident, even from the last one hundred years, when was the last time you had to spend a few days hunting down dinner? So, we will have more time for the exchange of information, and ideas. We would become a sharing society, as was once the case, when it took a village...
Anyway, I digress. I believe that it is a lovely theory, and I would like to be one of the first to fully incorporate the ideas into my life and progress to this next stage of evolution.
Sincerely,
Carla

Technology has increased the output of the agriculture sector of society but just because you personally have not gone out and hunted down dinner doesnt mean someone hasnt hunted for you.

We just call them feed lots and slaughterhouses now.

[Buffy]

Anyone watch "Dirty Jobs" on the Discovery Channel?

Who'd wanna do *that*,
Buffy

[Peacemaker]

Originally Posted by Buffy

Anyone watch "Dirty Jobs" on the Discovery Channel?

Who'd wanna do *that*,
Buffy

Hi Buffy,

Fortunately there are people who are already prepared to do these jobs, otherwise we would be living in a world of chaos and disease. I think The Wise One's suggestion that we should all have a share of doing *that* sounds extremely fair and equitable. Perhaps if we all spent the odd day shovelling s**t it would keep us mentally grounded enough to appreciate the good stuff we can have.

I actually watched a programme this morning where volunteers were dredging rubbish from a filthy London stream on their days off, just to make it habitable for fish and other wildlife. VOLUNTEERS Buffy! Imagine that! People who actually choose to do *those* jobs for pleasure, and for the betterment of their area in their own time. You would probably consider these people to be saddoes and losers. I think they are the salt of the earth, and the type of people I would love to spend the rest of my life living among, and being inspired by.

Keep your nails painted Buffy,

Peacemaker

[Peacemaker]

Originally Posted by cslagle

All,
I think that a book by James Redfeild addresses this theory. It was his book, The Celestine Prophecy , that gave me hope for human evolution toward a greater good. With so many bad happenings in the world, the thought of a moneyless society is uplifting.
His theory was that in the next step of our evolution we will exchange thoughts as currency, instead of money. We will no longer have to work for food production, and other "hard labor" tasks, thanks to computers and new methods. This is evident, even from the last one hundred years, when was the last time you had to spend a few days hunting down dinner? So, we will have more time for the exchange of information, and ideas. We would become a sharing society, as was once the case, when it took a village...
Anyway, I digress. I believe that it is a lovely theory, and I would like to be one of the first to fully incorporate the ideas into my life and progress to this next stage of evolution.
Sincerely,
Carla

Welcome on board Carla, and thanks for your sentiments. I haven't read the book you refer to, and so can't really comment. I don't know which way evolution will take us mentally, or physically, once we get through the initial barrier I refer to, but I DO know that we will have the choice to follow the right path for our species, and that no power or financial inducements will exist to make us veer off that course. We just steer our course using common sense and practicality as our guides. They will be enough.

Best regards to you and yours, from me and mine.
Peacemaker.

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Fortunately there are people who are already prepared to do these jobs, otherwise we would be living in a world of chaos and disease.

The question is of course, "would they do it if it wasn't the only thing someone would pay them to do so they could earn a living?" You throw this one out, but its obvious that you see how transparent it is because you have to try to support it:

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

I actually watched a programme this morning where volunteers were dredging rubbish from a filthy London stream on their days off, just to make it habitable for fish and other wildlife. VOLUNTEERS Buffy! Imagine that! People who actually choose to do *those* jobs for pleasure, and for the betterment of their area in their own time.

How many of these folks do it full time--not just as a once a month/year, salve-to-their-conscience/ego-boost? This is hardly compelling data to show that large enough numbers of people would do it as an alternative to other things without any compelling force like poverty or societal rules.

Lastly you try the "it may not taste good but its good for you" argument:

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

I think The Wise One's suggestion that we should all have a share of doing *that* sounds extremely fair and equitable. Perhaps if we all spent the odd day shovelling s**t it would keep us mentally grounded enough to appreciate the good stuff we can have.

Sure it might be Fair and Equitable, but there needs to be some mechanism to get people over that hump of "evolution"...and again to justify this you must throw excrement at me because I dare to ask you how you're going to get there:

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

You would probably consider these people to be saddoes and losers. I think they are the salt of the earth, and the type of people I would love to spend the rest of my life living among, and being inspired by.

Lovely. Me too!

You continue to avoid saying how we're going to change human nature which is for the most part to avoid any undesirable tasks.

I know, I know, some smart psychologists will figure it out, you're just a big picture guy.

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Keep your nails painted Buffy,

Keep your overall's on and your shovel handy, Peacemaker...

Apples and pies,
Buffy