How soon will a moneyless society change the way we percieve each other?

[CraigD]

It appears to me that there are two diametrically opposed camps with “faith-based” opinions on the virtues of money: those who believe it inherently evil; and those who believe it inherently good. Both camps have expressed themselves in this thread, some insisting that a “moneyless society” would be a utopia, others, a chaotic disaster.

It’s important, I think, to recognize that both conclusion are non-scientific. There is, at present, little to no way to perform experiments necessary to validate either hypothesis. In principle, one could divide human society into experiment and control groups, and test a plan such as Peacemaker’s, but ethically and practically, this is impossible. The possibility of modeling societies with computers promises to make such experiments possible, but carries with it its own compliment of ethical issues.

Reason-based opinions, I think, look at money as a tool, with potential for either good or bad. The historically knowledgeable recognize that the role, and even the definition, of money in society have changed dramatically between and within major historic periods and cultures, and, by extrapolation, is almost certainly changing now. It’s difficult, nay impossible, to judge the goodness or badness of something that is not the same thing from time to time and culture to culture.

My personal opinion is that the role of money in society will only be reduced in significance, to the extent that it disappears altogether or practically, only when the social functions that it facilitates likewise is reduced – in short, that we will have a moneyless society only when all goods and services are so cheap that it’s more trouble to financially account for them than not, a state I (and some better-known theorists and writers) term Abundance.

[LaurieAG]

Originally Posted by CraigD

Reason-based opinions, I think, look at money as a tool, with potential for either good or bad. The historically knowledgeable recognize that the role, and even the definition, of money in society have changed dramatically between and within major historic periods and cultures, and, by extrapolation, is almost certainly changing now. It’s difficult, nay impossible, to judge the goodness or badness of something that is not the same thing from time to time and culture to culture.

Hi CraigD,

It's interesting that you draw a parallell between money and science that is as old as society.

Plato, in his Phaedrus, wrote of a conversation between the Egyptian god Thoth and the pharaoh Thamos (Ammon). Thoth presented him with the skills of writing gaming and gambling etc and announced their pros. King Thamos provided the cons stating that those who create such wonders are not the best people to determine their disadvantages. While Thoth claims that writing is the drug of rememberance Thamos claims that it will be the drug of forgetfulness as people will no longer say things from the heart and will appear wise because of reading, but will not really be wise.

After all, it doesn't matter how much money or science any society/culture has at any one time, the people who judge the goodness or badness of the uses put to that money and science, in the majority of cases, haven't been born yet.

[charles brough]

The implication in all this is that if we just keep on in the direction of our secular ideals---that is, peace, love, rights, humanism, etc---we will achieve a utopia! This is all very nice and feminine, but it is not of any practical use to us in this real world and in science. We are not in any way ever going to eliminate crime, war, currency-medium of exchange, and antagonism between groups. We are social primates instinctively geared to identify with 'our group" what ever it is. It is the very associating with others in the group that creates relative peace, love, humaness etc. while building enmity with those outside and in other groups. As history has shown through thousands of years, civilization is built by this process.

[Peacemaker]

Hi Charles, thanks for your observations. I think that if you read over the whole thread, you will see that these points have been covered previously.

'The implication in all this is that if we just keep on in the direction of our secular ideals---that is, peace, love, rights, humanism, etc---we will achieve a utopia! This is all very nice and feminine, but it is not of any practical use to us in this real world and in science.'

I see you consider utopia 'nice and feminine'. Do you believe that we will all become more loving, cherishing, kind people as a result of this?...and if so, what's wrong with that?...and what leads you to think that the whole of humanity working together to achieve what we need to achieve, is not of any practical use in this real world and in science?
Don't you think we would continue to think and invent in the world I foresee? Do you think it would 'dumb us down' more than watching the television for however many hours a day we currently do? Don't you think it would be better for humanity as a species to be able to grow up and participate in each other's lives, and live in peace and harmony? What do you have that's better?

'We are not in any way ever going to eliminate crime, war, currency-medium of exchange, and antagonism between groups.'

If we continue to do nothing, and refuse to try something previously untried, and continue to ignore the obvious, you're right!...nothing WILL change.

'We are social primates instinctively geared to identify with 'our group" what ever it is. It is the very associating with others in the group that creates relative peace, love, humaness etc. while building enmity with those outside and in other groups. As history has shown through thousands of years, civilization is built by this process.'

If we mentally enlarge the 'group' to encompass our whole species, it is STILL the very associating with others in the group that creates relative peace, love, humaness etc.
The whole future process of evolution for humanity is simply to enlarge our mental family to include our whole species...So that we no longer have to do this... 'while building enmity with those outside and in other groups. As history has shown through thousands of years, civilization is built by this process.'

You may have noted my absence from this thread for some time. I have been re-thinking my strategy. I can't spend the rest of my life convincing one person at a time, having to repeatedly cover the same ground. Does anyone have any ideas of how this can be taken global, and very quickly?
Follow the news, read your history. Disaster caused by economic mismanagement, is imminent. This will be followed by much larger disasters, warfare, further famine and suffering. We don't have to follow that path. Let's be a little more positive about our future and actively take control of it, now.

Best regards to all,
Peacemaker.

[ErlyRisa]

Hollywood -- writer's strike....

DRM (Digital Right's management... it's a new chip in every device, that communicates Encrypted -- you wont be able to watch TV without it)

Internet /// Myspace, Facebook Utube...

.... the west is being taught to entertain themselves.

,., Linux, .Net, and finally Singularity (new Msoft OS)
we are being taught to be self sufficient when it comes to using, abuseing, and creating technology. (Singularity will be a fully speach based comploetly Object based OS, running on OCT core processors with solid state memory throughout -and it will be built into your dinning room table)

Nano Tech.... by the time Singularity becomes an old hack OS, community will be driving the tech scene, leaving scientists to do the hard work. In the meantime the geek communtiy will be giving CPU time to the knwoledgabel. In time you should be able to buy yourself a can of Nano Bots, rated to 1 week 1GigaJoule, which will build you that coffee table you just designed (or bought from some coffe table designer in uzbekistan)

--so no... money less society - well tell it to the African that will be wanting to desing you a coffe table if he would be willing to do it for you for ... hmm what, maybe you could bater with him and give program him up a new wood Grain processor?

--so unless you wanna just consume the coffe table because you need it now... your going to have to barter... and how are you going to do that when you can't read? -thier is always the charity of you not desinging the coffe table, even thought you know you could, instead you should concentrate on programming something that helps even more people (Wood grain processor) - and sell it, so that you can buy 2 of those coffe tables, so that the uzbeki can buy a coffe from starbucks.

--Russia is an example of a moneyless society... the old mafia/comrade rich don't buy from the poor -- they only buy from themselves, in effect russia hasn't changed a bit... and many a country is in this very state because of this sole reason.

--Japan/Korea/Taiwan is an example of technology aiding in further the cuase of society.

--The US... the Firestarter, the real deal, the guys changing and making the rules...what I hate though is thier latest rule.... that those that will never be inventive (the X hippies' kids), won't have anything to do... so let them become Aid workers, or bureaucrats, 'civil servants' without the title, the white collar gestapo... the rule making leaches that survive off of the inventors.... in effect Africa is thier present... without it they would have nothing to do. (PS, so is just about every other trend driven ideology, Anti Nuclear, Greenpeace - got boring so now it's Climate Change, through to park bench warming and sign making.)

-Utopia = no leaches. (for me at least)
--for the others, Utopia = Plenty of others I can tell what to do, while they provide for me.

[Peacemaker]

Sorry Pal, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, however I did glean that you are against what I believe is the best direction for the future of humanity. That's a shame, because if you took the time to really understand what I'm talking about, you would take your head out of whatever cyber planet it's on and look around at the real world, the one that's dying because mankind can't admit that it is better to live in harmony with nature than to destroyit, in favour of the next 'big thing' your heroes, the inventors think of.

I'm quite an old guy now, and perhaps don't have so long to live. So the world's problems will have one less man to point them out to mankind and offer a commonsense, practical, workable solution...and the selfish, greedy, stupid bastards will 'win' the argument, and lose the battle for our future.

Congratulations.

[ErlyRisa]

Let's rewind the clock, in the hope that somesort of understanding can be reached...

What would your place in society be in an older world? - what do you have to provide that can be bartered with?

You see even in a Kibutz type of economy each member has to provide in order to be accepted as a part of that society...

For example if I were in a wheel chair, as little as 30 years ago I had no piont in living, I would have to rely on society to provide for me. Today though society may not even have to be all that charitable to one that is in a wheel chair. With technology that person can provide alot for the society...
I wonder if anyone is thinking of a really good example right now? -starts with David.

So ... because of a Free Economy David in his wheel chair can be valued in other ways. He no longer has to build coffee tables in exchange for acceptance in his community.

I also cited Linux in my previous post in the hope that some-one would point out that it is actually a prime example of a community approached collaboration (although with a hell of alot of prodding and pushing from the free economy to keep it alive)

I think what Utpopianists need to remember is that...
A. - It's been tried.
B. - It didn't work. (Kibutz's are now the holiday farms of the rich)
C. - We need "Useless job's" - not everyone can build coffee tables.
D. - Appreciate the coffee table maker, it's the person that provide a place for your latte so that you could have the time to ponder upon how you can take away another freedom from the coffee table maker.
E. - Not all of us like coffee, the table maker probably puts beer on his table that he constructed out of scraps... appreciate the fact that the alcohol is the only thing that keeps him sane while he deals with latte sipping customers, and that your hokus pokus plans for society are what helps him decide that his freedom to bear arms should be justified with the purchase of a firearm.
F. - Being a Utopianist, means that you probably already don't actually provide anything substantial for society... I am looking at the Salesmen, the Reqruiter, the Halfwit Officarian., be thankful in the fact that your society taxes the coffee table maker enough to provide for your place in society.

and since this is supposedly a science forum....
For the Knowledgable Creators. Be Thankful for the people that put you thier, without them you would of had to have grown your own food and be a farmer like the rest of us, and thankyou for "giving back", by designing a better plough for the farm.

Stop flying the hammer and sickle. and put a star on your forehead - at least then we know who you are.

Hippies Unit - then build a spaceship, and fly to mars.

[Peacemaker]

I have been away from this thread for quite a few months now and world events have, as I predicted, proved once again that the people who control money cannot be trusted with that task.
They get greedy and take risks and are highly paid for doing so, until it all goes pear shaped and the tax payers and the poor have to pick up the tab.
All of you, who think that a society based on money is the greatest thing since sliced bread have failed to learn the lessons of history, which are that mankind cannot be trusted to deal honestly with each other when money is involved.
What I promote is not communism, I support no hammer and sickle or red stars, because they were based on money systems and merely produced a bastardised copy of what exists in capitalist countries.
What I promote is based on cooperation and understanding for the betterment of all, not just a few.
The British media is promoting a sympathetic approach to the 'plight' of the banking fraternity currently, you know, the ones who have been taking huge salaries and bonuses for years at the expense of their customers. Apparently the difference between a financial trader and a seagull now is that a seagull can still put a deposit on a porche. I don't feel sorry for them at all. I just hope they learn a little humility from this experience.
I just pray that no more of my predictions come true before we start to see common sense.

[Zythryn]

Meh
It is easy to predict a disaster. I can predict that a Cat 4 hurricane will hit Miami.
And I can gaurentee you it will happen (if you wait long enough).
There have been dishonest and greedy people regardless of the form of economic gain (barter, money, etc).
Greed is not about money, it is about resources. If you do away with 'money' what ever replaces it will be what greedy people covet.

[Peacemaker]

Be specific Z, what will people be greedy for in a moneyless society where everyone has an equal share of the earth's resources?...and if it's not about money, if you were offered two buckets of money or 2 buckets of crude oil, which would you take? :-)