How soon will a moneyless society change the way we percieve each other?

[Peacemaker]

You still haven't read this thread to understand rather than to criticise have you prgmdave? I have given answers to this over and over again.

OK, here we go again. Do you think it would be in the best interests of a modern mankind for all of us to drive sports cars? Don't you think it would be better and more materially and economically effective for us to build superb mass transport systems powered by cheap energy?

Does it occur to you that there would be far fewer accidents if humans weren't in charge of individual motor vehicles? I have suggested a possible change to the way we use cars after we evolve, in the original document I wrote (and which is available on page 6 of this thread).

Similarly, with the food situation. Not everyone on this planet eats meat. But there is no reason we wouldn't be able to produce as much meat as we need, and more, to store if there are any leaner times in the future. We will have the whole world as our larder, with the ability to produce whatever we need in the best climate and under the best conditions to ensure no shortages. This will obviously not happen overnight, but we are currently producing enough food to feed 6 billion people. We must be, because there are that many of our species alive on our planet currently, and if we shared the currently available produce around better, no one would starve.

The dirty jobs, (also previously covered) are being done now. for a much poorer lifestyle that the one I offer. Maybe doing the dirty jobs should be a rite of passage for our youth, making them more aware of how the planet works. Or maybe we could just build and design better equipment to do the dirty jobs for us? Mankind will come up with the best solutions once this system is in place. All I can offer is ideas which make people think laterally instead of literally. We have to start thinking about our future and how to get around, and minimise potential problems, instead of dwelling on them and getting bogged down in minutea.


(Fossil fuels - scarce in and of themselves.) Use atomic energy until other sources are available.
(Nuclear energy - produces waste which has to be disposed of, which creates a scarcity of uncontaminated land.) Use our space know how to send nuclear waste to the sun!

(Solar/wind - not available everywhere and takes up an incredible amount of land, making land much more scarce.) We have the whole planet!

(Biofuels - arable land is not infinite, and any land that is dedicated to fuels is not dedicated to food, which will have to be in overabundance to deal with the feeding of all 6 billion of us (which would require an inordinate amount of transportation, btw).) We have the technology and knowhow to turn what are now useless areas of our planet into lush pastures and forests and wind turbine farms. Think about the last time you flew anywhere. Do you remember taking off from a city and then travelling for hours over mostly empty countryside? Try flying over Russia, or Africa, or even Europe, and see how much empty, available land you can see. and then multiply that by Australia, South America, Canada Etc Etc. Insects have at least 10 times more biomass on this planet than we do, and they seem to be doing OK. Instead of problems, try to think about solutions and you will come to appreciate this philosophy much more readily.

Sorry if I come across a bit crotchety. Your questions are valid, its just that everyone comes up with the same questions and objections, and then don't listen to the answers. They just come up with more questions of a similar type.

What I REALLY need to do is get the world's attention for about 4 hours and then explain it to everyone, so that the people who immediately understand what I'm talking about can explain what I'm talking about to those who don't understand.

Wouldn't THAT be nice?
Best regards, Peacemaker.

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

What I REALLY need to do is get the world's attention for about 4 hours and then explain it to everyone, so that the people who immediately understand what I'm talking about can explain what I'm talking about to those who don't understand.

No, its simply that your "answers" are content-free. You only talk about "what should happen," and whenever you're asked "how do we get there" you simply say, "if people would just listen then they'd want to," just as you did here. Through many dozens of posts above posing reasons why this statement is simply not true, you have continually avoided responding directly to the issues, indicated that you either don't have a response or wish to make the questions go away.

Worse, in many of your responses you have attacked people by saying that they are against the *goals* that you propose rather than what is really the case which is that you describe no obvious method for achieving those goals other than "people will obviously want to" and "that's a detail that people smarter than me will figure out," you get people angry for misrepresenting their objections.

Honest, people do not hate you just because you are beautiful. You are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy based on the notion that the only reason that people won't go along with your "brilliant" plan because they are petty and stupid. It's therefore not surprising that you get a negative reaction.

In the Buddhist religion, a state of pleasurable annihilation awarded to the wise, particularly to those wise enough to understand it,
Buffy

[pgrmdave]

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

You still haven't read this thread to understand rather than to criticise have you prgmdave? I have given answers to this over and over again.

Honestly, no, I haven't. I simply don't have the time nor the inclination to do so. If you have answered these questions previously, could you give me a post number for some of them? (I don't have a page 6 of this thread, we probably have our settings different as to how many posts / page).

OK, here we go again. Do you think it would be in the best interests of a modern mankind for all of us to drive sports cars? Don't you think it would be better and more materially and economically effective for us to build superb mass transport systems powered by cheap energy?

People don't typically want to do what's in the best interest of mankind, but what's in their immediate best interest. Ideally, we wouldn't, but it is a simple fact of human nature that a given percentage of people will defect rather than cooperate.

Similarly, with the food situation. Not everyone on this planet eats meat. But there is no reason we wouldn't be able to produce as much meat as we need, and more, to store if there are any leaner times in the future. We will have the whole world as our larder, with the ability to produce whatever we need in the best climate and under the best conditions to ensure no shortages. This will obviously not happen overnight, but we are currently producing enough food to feed 6 billion people. We must be, because there are that many of our species alive on our planet currently, and if we shared the currently available produce around better, no one would starve.

This is an interesting thought. Given that we are on a science site, I recommend that both of us find sources and see if this is true - that there really is enough food, transportation fuel, and arable land for six billion people.

We have to start thinking about our future and how to get around, and minimize potential problems, instead of dwelling on them and getting bogged down in minutia.

The devil is in the details. The minutia are incredibly important, as they are what actually get implemented. Having a vision of a grand transportation system for NYC is great. Picturing how you're going to put commuter rail down over the roads, without disturbing the wiring and piping underneath, and without having to shut down the city for an inordinate amount of time is when it becomes difficult.

1 - Have an overarching view of an ideal world.
2 - ???
3 - Profit!

(Fossil fuels - scarce in and of themselves.) Use atomic energy until other sources are available.
(Nuclear energy - produces waste which has to be disposed of, which creates a scarcity of uncontaminated land.) Use our space know how to send nuclear waste to the sun!

I used to be a big proponent of this, and I didn't understand why we didn't do it until I asked one of my professors and he pointed out that we've had at least one space vehicle explode on liftoff. Are you really willing to take the risk that a vehicle with a nuclear waste payload could explode, spreading the waste throughout the world? It would only take 1 mistake for it to be the biggest and costliest mistake that humans have ever made.

(Solar/wind - not available everywhere and takes up an incredible amount of land, making land much more scarce.) We have the whole planet!

We don't have the whole planet, that's a gross misstatement. We have all the habitable planet (i.e. not extremely hilly areas, nor areas that are too dry or cold or hot, nor areas that are needed wetlands, or grasslands) minus the parts that we use for other things (places to live, work, grow food, play, places set aside for wildlife preserves).

We have the technology and know how to turn what are now useless areas of our planet into lush pastures and forests and wind turbine farms.

Really? Could you link some information for me, so that I could read about it on my own? What are these "useless" areas, and what is this "technology and know how"? I'm not doubting you, I simply feel at a disadvantage, having not studied these things.

Think about the last time you flew anywhere. Do you remember taking off from a city and then travelling for hours over mostly empty countryside?

Sorry, I live in NJ - no empty land here

Try flying over Russia, or Africa, or even Europe, and see how much empty, available land you can see. and then multiply that by Australia, South America, Canada Etc Etc.

As far as I'm aware, much of the United State's land along the coasts is either used or protected, and I'd assume that held true even for much of middle america. Much of canada is permafrost (though global warming is fixing that!) and South America doesn't have the infrastructure yet to be able to use much of its land as effectively as Europe or the US.

Instead of problems, try to think about solutions and you will come to appreciate this philosophy much more readily.

Without problems, there can be no solutions. I often try to come up with all the problems inherent in a system - if it is your system that you are proposing, then it is not up to me to try to fix it.

Sorry if I come across a bit crotchety. Your questions are valid, its just that everyone comes up with the same questions and objections, and then don't listen to the answers. They just come up with more questions of a similar type.

The problem is that you haven't addressed any of my questions with anything specific. You have a lot of grand ideas, and some of them sound great, but without specifics, without even a hint of a blueprint, it's just a castle in the sky.

[Peacemaker]

Hi Buffy, Thanks for your continued efforts to get my arguments on the 'straight and narrow' Let's see if this hits the mark with you:

(How do we get there?)

I am currently meeting with a worldwide organisation which has been in existence for over 100 years who have ideas which are almost exactly in line with mine. Their jargon is a little dated, as are their proposed methods of 'getting there'. However, with a little editing and re-branding I believe I can direct their huge resource of people and communications in a more structured and modern way to reach the people of today.

I aim to use their resources to send a positive message to the peoples of this planet. Telling them that there are people who are ready, willing and able to guide us, as a species, to a better way of living. Right here, right now.

Once I have the attention of the peoples of the world I will indicate the hour and the day when the evolution will take place, should there be sufficient support. I would guage that support by asking the peoples of this planet to mark their doors and/or windows with a pre-agreed sign, which would be to hang, or tie something yellow to their front door handles, or display something yellow in their windows, That's all the initial support which will be required to take this forward.

Once I am satisfied that we have secured the will of the majority of the peoples of this planet for change, I will begin to engage the governmental leaders of the whole planet in talks to decide which areas should be targeted for relief from day one, and arrange for adequate resource to be sent to those areas in order to begin to save human life as soon as possible.

I will discuss with them the security of supply of all goods from day one. I will be explaining, as I have already done in the document, that from the moment of evolution forward, no one will own, or exercise ownership over anything on this planet. This means that factories can continue producing at exactly the same rate as they have always done, until we have time to re-fit them with faster, more efficient equipment. Plants in the fields will continue to grow. animals will continue to be looked after.

Everything will seem exactly the same at the end of day 1 of our new civilisation as it was 24 hours before, except that our philosophy will have changed. THAT'S when we will really begin to see and reap the benefits of this way of life.

War will have ended. Forever.

Inequality will have begun to be ended. Forever.

Crime will very quickly be eradicated from human consciousness. Forever

We will begin to take measures to ensure that all the peoples of the world will have access to safe food and water, and very quickly get to the point where starvation, malnutrition and preventable and curable 'killer' diseases, such as cholera, Kwashiorkor, typhoid, malaria and TB are eliminated as man-killers, Forever.

A world wide amnesty on gun posession would be enacted. We would ask every person on the planet who owns a firearm or dangerous weapon to surrender it to the police or the military, or to at the very least, make it unusable until they have developed enough faith in their species to know that there is no 'trickery' going on, no-one is going to turn their weapons around on them and kill them.

We will be recruiting qualified, experienced volunteers to lead other volunteers, who are temporarily out of work, to undertake environmental projects, all around the world, as a start to returning our planet to a pristine condition.

We will begin to plan and organise our existence on this planet in a structured, ordered way, ensuring that whilst we only produce and distribute only the very best for ourselves, we don't over-produce, or use areas of the planet we don't need to use. Using this philosophy we can end the boom and bust nature of civilisatiion very quickly. And forever.

That's the only way I can see for getting us there Buffy. If I can't get sufficient support from the peoples of the planet, then things will continue exactly as they are. And if that doesn't scare you into doing something positive, then you really need to travel the world and see how other people live, and how people are abusing each other now, for money, and the power it brings them.

Hope this aids understanding.

Ken (Peacemaker).

[pgrmdave]

I, for one, would not support that system, unless everybody else did (in which case I'd probably just exploit it for personal gain )

What would you do about nations like China, or North Korea, or Iran, or Sudan, or Cuba, or all the other nations which are distrustful of others?

Might I suggest that rather than starting big, you start small, and show the world how great things could be if they follow you? If you can create a fully functional utopian society in a nation only the size of, say, Mexico, or Germany, or Brazil, then the world would be more likely to give support.

[Peacemaker]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

Honestly, no, I haven't. I simply don't have the time nor the inclination to do so. If you have answered these questions previously, could you give me a post number for some of them? (I don't have a page 6 of this thread, we probably have our settings different as to how many posts / page).

(If you don't have the inclination to read the source material, honestly, why are you asking questions? If something is important to you, your friends and to generations as yet unborn, why wouldn't you want to know everything that has been written about it so far? Further down your post you ask me for technical and library information. Why should I bother providing you with it when you tell me that you don't have the time or inclination to do any research? Here's a clue. Try reading the whole of this thread from the beginning to find the source material. It should only take you about 1 hour. Think of it as time invested wisely.

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

People don't typically want to do what's in the best interest of mankind, but what's in their immediate best interest. Ideally, we wouldn't, but it is a simple fact of human nature that a given percentage of people will defect rather than cooperate.

(Yes people typically do want to do what is in our best and most immediate interest, and if our best interest is also mankind's best interest, who's losing?...and what is your source for this 'fact' of human nature that a given percentage of people will defect rather than cooperate?...and what IS that given percentage? I would have to say that that remark is not a fact, but merely you surmising what the rest of the population will do and think.)

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

This is an interesting thought. Given that we are on a science site, I recommend that both of us find sources and see if this is true - that there really is enough food, transportation fuel, and arable land for six billion people.

(It's true...I guarantee it. Try reading New Scientist, where they have recently calculated that there is enough potential productive capacity on this planet for 6 times its current human population. The fact of the matter is that we currently use land wastefully. With hydroponics, soil technology and the current changes in plant and animal genetics that are going on (and I'm not going to get into an argument about the ethics of THAT. I'm merely stating it as a fact.) we can utilise largely 'useless' areas of the planet like 'the desert' and 'the steppes' and 'really steep hills' to build horticultural and agricultural centres of excellence.Thereby concentrating our productive efforts into camparably small spaces from the area we currently (ab)use. Can you see that as a step forward Dave? Or are you going to come up with another glib comment with an 'evil' after it?)

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

The devil is in the details. (Now where have I heard that before?) The minutia are incredibly important, as they are what actually get implemented. Having a vision of a grand transportation system for NYC is great. Picturing how you're going to put commuter rail down over the roads, without disturbing the wiring and piping underneath, and without having to shut down the city for an inordinate amount of time is when it becomes difficult.

(I'm not an engineer Dave, or an architect, or a deep sea diver. Our species HAS the skills to come up with answers to these problems. Doesn't large scale engineering take place in New York anymore?)

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

I used to be a big proponent of this, and I didn't understand why we didn't do it until I asked one of my professors and he pointed out that we've had at least one space vehicle explode on liftoff. Are you really willing to take the risk that a vehicle with a nuclear waste payload could explode, spreading the waste throughout the world? It would only take 1 mistake for it to be the biggest and costliest mistake that humans have ever made.

(When we transport nuclear waste here in the UK, it has to be encased in an incredibly strong capsule. These capsules are so strong it is estimated that they could survive a direct hit from a large locomotive. They are tested to destruction, and it takes an absolutely massive direct force to even crack them. Your professor was looking at it from the point of view that everything would be made 'to a price', rather than 'to a specification'

Do you honestly think, that with all the equipment and technology that is at our disposal, we wouldn't be able to come up with perfectly safe transport capsules, which would survive intact at maybe twice the projected forces imparted during such a catastrophic accident? or maybe 10 times, or what about 100 times? You seriously underestimate the capabilities of our species Dave.)

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

We don't have the whole planet, that's a gross misstatement. We have all the habitable planet (i.e. not extremely hilly areas, nor areas that are too dry or cold or hot, nor areas that are needed wetlands, or grasslands) minus the parts that we use for other things (places to live, work, grow food, play, places set aside for wildlife preserves).

(I'm not making any gross misstatement here Dave. I have told you above that we already have the technology and know-how to be able to dramatically reduce our biological footprint on this planet...and still live a wonderful life.)

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

Really? Could you link some information for me, so that I could read about it on my own? What are these "useless" areas, and what is this "technology and know how"? I'm not doubting you, I simply feel at a disadvantage, having not studied these things.

(There is a whole internet full of information on just whatever you are looking for. Try typing 'Recent findings in soil technology' into your search engine. Or 'What is the biomass of the human population on earth?' Try thinking laterally.)

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

Sorry, I live in NJ - no empty land here

(Have you ever tried travelling very far away from NJ Dave? you should give it a bash. Travel broadens the mind.)

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

As far as I'm aware, much of the United State's land along the coasts is either used or protected, and I'd assume that held true even for much of middle america. Much of canada is permafrost (though global warming is fixing that!) and South America doesn't have the infrastructure yet to be able to use much of its land as effectively as Europe or the US.

(If you could have been inclined to read my document Dave, you would have found out that there is an island, off the coast of Africa, in the Canary Islands group, which is an extinct volcano. The base of it sits on a steep geological fault line, running away from Africa and towards the Eastern Americal Seaboard. (That's the New York side). The base material holding this land mass to the African Continental plate is like a rotting tooth. Scientists predict that when that tooth breaks off, millions of tons of Island will slide towards America, creating a tidal wave more than a thousand feet high, which will be hundreds of miles long. This Tsunami will wipe out all civilisation around the Western Atlantic rim, for miles inland. Millions will die, and because the land will be inundated by seawater, the land itself will be useless for years, because of the salt pollution. Now, armed with this knowledge, do you think that this region is a good place for humanity to build on and live on currently? Why not let the experts locate safe areas of our planet, which are statistically the most unlikely to be affected by natural disasters and locate out population there? Where it's safe?

...and you neglected to take on board what I wrote about flying over Europe, and seeing huge expanses of empty land beneath me, with the overflying of large cities taking up only a few short minutes of a four hour flight? Europe is considered to be highly populated. To fly over London, with its population of 10 million people, takes less than 5 minutes.)

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

Without problems, there can be no solutions. I often try to come up with all the problems inherent in a system - if it is your system that you are proposing, then it is not up to me to try to fix it.

(You're missing the point again Dave, It's up to all of us to employ a little 'blue sky thinking' here, and use our individual expertise and experience to see if we can come up with solutions to strengthen the argument for this.

The evolution of mankind.

It really is in ALL our interests to circumvent the objections and just get on with it.)

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

The problem is that you haven't addressed any of my questions with anything specific. You have a lot of grand ideas, and some of them sound great, but without specifics, without even a hint of a blueprint, it's just a castle in the sky.

(...And, for you, it always will be, until you take the decision to REAlLY consider what's at stake here and properly evaluate the pros and cons.)

All the best Dave
Peacemaker.

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Hi Buffy, Thanks for your continued efforts to get my arguments on the 'straight and narrow'

Happy to! Anytime!

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Let's see if this hits the mark with you:

(How do we get there?)

I'll try to translate this for folks who need a simpler explanation (kinda like the new Geico Ads here in the US with the celebrity translators...except for the fact that I have a lot more hair and am way cuter than Peter Frampton):

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

I am currently meeting with a worldwide organisation which has been in existence for over 100 years who have ideas which are almost exactly in line with mine. Their jargon is a little dated, as are their proposed methods of 'getting there'. However, with a little editing and re-branding I believe I can direct their huge resource of people and communications in a more structured and modern way to reach the people of today.

"I'm meeting with a Blue-Ribbon Commission of Really Smart and Influential People, who agree with me, and with some undefined slight modifications of all the stuff they've already tried with their millions of dollars, we'll come up with a way to convince everyone of this really good idea."

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

I aim to use their resources to send a positive message to the peoples of this planet. Telling them that there are people who are ready, willing and able to guide us, as a species, to a better way of living. Right here, right now.

"I'm gonna tell everyone that it'll be really cool when we're done. Peace. No shortages. No crime. No avarice. Clean air and water. No more global warming. And it'll happen instantaneously with no effort on your part."

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Once I have the attention of the peoples of the world...

"As soon as they hear this, they'll all agree that this is a really good idea and be ready to listen to me!"

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

... I will indicate the hour and the day when the evolution will take place, ....

"I personally will be the messiah...be there or be square!

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

...should there be sufficient support. I would guage that support by asking the peoples of this planet to mark their doors and/or windows with a pre-agreed sign, which would be to hang, or tie something yellow to their front door handles, or display something yellow in their windows,

"...and remember what happened to the Egyptians who didn't mark their doors like Moses said to!

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

That's all the initial support which will be required to take this forward.

"I don't even need to count how many, if anyone puts something on their door, that'll be enough. Those who don't, well, it may not stop with the first born male child...."

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Once I am satisfied that we have secured the will of the majority of the peoples of this planet for change, I will begin to engage the governmental leaders of the whole planet in talks to decide which areas should be targeted for relief from day one, and arrange for adequate resource to be sent to those areas in order to begin to save human life as soon as possible.

"Since it will be obvious that I am a dangerous and unstoppable political force, all world leaders will beg to meet with me because I'm obviously the only one who knows how to implement these undescribed solutions which the Really Smart People who are at my beck and call will work out. Somehow. Instantaneously."

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

I will discuss with them the security of supply of all goods from day one. I will be explaining, as I have already done in the document, that from the moment of evolution forward, no one will own, or exercise ownership over anything on this planet.

"That is, the government owns them, and if you dare to breach the 'security of supply' by say, thinking that the factory could be improved if you just walk in and try to manage it differently, there will be severe consequences.

"If you wish to start a factory of your own that runs better though, it will obviously very easy to simply go find a bunch of people who are doing nothing--there will be lots of idle CEOs and other formerly-rich folks--and since recourse to build gigantic plants will be free, there will be no obstacles to doing whatever you want."

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

...This means that factories can continue producing at exactly the same rate as they have always done, until we have time to re-fit them with faster, more efficient equipment. Plants in the fields will continue to grow. animals will continue to be looked after.

"Trifling problems like supply chain management and allocation of resources of course will no longer be necessary, because after this change, all resource availability will become infinite overnight."

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Everything will seem exactly the same at the end of day 1 of our new civilisation as it was 24 hours before, except that our philosophy will have changed. THAT'S when we will really begin to see and reap the benefits of this way of life.

"Well, unless you're rich, in which case you'll notice people moving into your living room because you no longer own your house, and they want to enjoy your view of the ocean.

"You may want to put your toothbrush under your pillow when you go to bed."

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

War will have ended. Forever.

Inequality will have begun to be ended. Forever.

"We will have convinced everyone to get along, although we haven't worked out exactly how we're going to convince them...but we will because we have Really Smart People who will figure it out.

"By tomorrow. Honest. Its really quite simple."

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Inequality will have begun to be ended. Forever.

"Note that I am be *completely* realistic. I say "begun" because I know it will take a while for all those people in South Central LA to move to the Malibu Colony where they'll prefer to live. Since Babs will no longer own her mansion, she'll simply have to decide whether she wants all those folks in her living room or whether she should upgrade to San Simeon before some one else thinks of it."

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Crime will very quickly be eradicated from human consciousness. Forever.

"Since no one owns anything, there is--by definition--no such thing as "theft" any more, nor is there any reason to assault or kill someone to take anything that's theirs because there are infinite resources! Moreover, everyone is going to be so blissfully happy that there will be no crimes of passion.

"And there will be an infinite number of really cute blonde women like Buffy and hunky guys like Matthew Fox so there will be no envy or coveteousness!"

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

We will begin to take measures to ensure that all the peoples of the world will have access to safe food and water, and very quickly get to the point where starvation, malnutrition and preventable and curable 'killer' diseases, such as cholera, Kwashiorkor, typhoid, malaria and TB are eliminated as man-killers, Forever.

"Oh I forgot to mention, we do have Really Smart People working on this, but they might take a little bit more time to cure all these diseases, even though they have infinite resources.

"Oh and I do admit that I might have an eensy-weensy bit of trouble convincing desperately starving people in the third world to go along with this because they are so *selfishly* trying to find enough food to eat, so it might take a bit of time to get them on board.

"As such, be sure not to kill their first-borns even if they haven't put a mark on their door."

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

A world wide amnesty on gun posession would be enacted. We would ask every person on the planet who owns a firearm or dangerous weapon to surrender it to the police or the military, or to at the very least, make it unusable until they have developed enough faith in their species to know that there is no 'trickery' going on, no-one is going to turn their weapons around on them and kill them.

"You see we realize that folks that own guns, uh well, think a little bit funny. They're kinda paranoid and even though I have this brilliant-but-unstated-strategy for convincing everyone to think right, these paranoid schizophenic gun nuts are gonna take some special handling.

"They need to remember though that we have the armies of all of the brainwashed enlightened countries of the world and we'll pry the dang things from your cold dead hands if we have to."

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

We will be recruiting qualified, experienced volunteers to lead other volunteers, who are temporarily out of work, to undertake environmental projects, all around the world, as a start to returning our planet to a pristine condition.

"Of course even though I promised that "everything will seem exactly the same at the end of day 1 of our new civilisation as it was 24 hours before," in fact its gonna put a LOT of people out of work, but that's where we get an infinite amount of free labor!

"I know I have to be careful about using the term 'volunteer' since so many people get all uppity about 'workin' fo' nuthin'' but really its to reinforce the fact that when I announce my incredibly convincing-but-as-yet-unworked-out argument for making this change, that everyone is going to *want* to do what ever I deem is "good for everyone." It will all be stuff to make you feel good! And even for the yucky stuff, there'll be plenty of people who want to do it! Heck, I'm sure Mike Rowe will!"

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

We will begin to plan and organise our existence on this planet in a structured, ordered way, ensuring that whilst we only produce and distribute only the very best for ourselves, we don't over-produce, or use areas of the planet we don't need to use. Using this philosophy we can end the boom and bust nature of civilisatiion very quickly. And forever.

"This will be easy because we've got a bunch of Really Smart People working on how all these complex supply chains will work. It'll probably involve some really fancy software or something, that can instantaneously change production requirements based on what people are going to want to be producing a month a year or 5 years from now with absolutely perfect efficiency and foreknowledge of all potential natural disasters that could affect it. That's really easy to do when you have Really Smart People working on it.

"Oh and you sticks in the mud who complain that command economies like the Soviet Union, Communist Eastern Europe and North Korea have never worked before, just don't realize how *transformative* my as-yet-unstated-convincing-argument-for-thinking-different is really going to be! It changes everything!"

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

That's the only way I can see for getting us there Buffy. If I can't get sufficient support from the peoples of the planet, then things will continue exactly as they are. And if that doesn't scare you into doing something positive, then you really need to travel the world and see how other people live, and how people are abusing each other now, for money, and the power it brings them.

"Anyone who doesn't agree that they should support me obviously has no knowledge of the world if they are so stupid not to see why we shouldn't make the world a perfect Nirvana. They all probably *want* the world to be a bad place.

"Sickos.

"See the solution is simply to get everyone to come listen to me and I'll convince them that they should change the way that they think so that they all think like I do.

"All it would take is an hour or so.

"I have it all worked out.

"Once everyone is practicing right thinking, then all you have to do is just eliminate money and ownership and resources will be infinite.

"That's all! Its so easy if you would just stop to think the way I do!"

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Hope this aids understanding.

"Isn't it obvious?"

Alpha children wear grey. They work much harder than we do, because they're so frightfully clever. I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. And then we are much better than the Gammas and Deltas. Gammas are stupid. They all wear green, and Delta children wear khaki. Oh no, I don't want to play with Delta children. And Epsilons are still worse. They're too stupid to be able to read or write. Besides they wear black, which is such a beastly color. I'm so glad I'm a Beta,
Buffy

[Peacemaker]

Hi Buffy,

Well, again you succeed in disappointing me with your lack of basic humanity. I offer suggestions and possible solutions, you offer sarcasm and negativity. I offer hope and love, you offer nothing.

Your remarks are those of a small spoiled child. You care nothing about the plight of others and are content to live in your little ivory tower and stamp your feet if anyone threatens to make you just as equal as the rest of us.

You make me more determined than ever that humanity should evolve away from your point of view.

[Zythryn]

Peacemaker, don't resort to name calling.
If you don't have any details, just say so.
If you do, please share, we would love to hear more.
However, at this stage, your 'plan' all comes down to:
"All of humanity will change their basic natures and learn to continue to work for just the basic needs".
So in your plan, do I understand correctly that no one will want a sports car? Or a unique work of art? I just don't see how you are going to overcome the most basic of human traits. The desire to gather and store resources.

[CraigD]

Assuming that a moneyless society is possible (an assumption I believe reasonable, because there’s clear historic evidence that for long periods, much or all of human society was moneyless), questions arise about what the transition from a moneyed to moneyless society would entail.

A couple of major character continuums are gradual-sudden and peaceful-violent. What Peacemaker describee is sudden and peaceful. What I (and Stross, in Accelerando) describe is gradual and peaceful. A stereotypical “workers revolution” is sudden and violent.

There’s reason to suspect that any sudden change in political power will entail violence, because some of the people opposed to any change are willing and capable of using violence to oppose it. Whether they are sociologically or morally incorrect or correct in doing so is inconsequential to the violence actually occurring.

To put it more pithily, if you throw a revolution, even a peaceful one, police will come.

Peacemaker, does it not strike you as likely that the events you envision, leading up to and including

Originally Posted by Peacemaker

Once I am satisfied that we have secured the will of the majority of the peoples of this planet for change, I will begin to engage the governmental leaders of the whole planet in talks to decide which areas should be targeted for relief from day one, and arrange for adequate resource to be sent to those areas in order to begin to save human life as soon as possible.

will involve you either being put in jail, or having to violently resist being put in jail?