[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by Jet2

To me those who like to fight and kill are either animal or have brain malfunction.

And this rules out religion, how exactly?




I accept the point that those who actively practice a religion are generally more malleable and accepting of (often "less than rational") social conditioning, however, I struggle to accept the extrapolation of that point to the opening premise of the thread.

Originally Posted by Ahmabeliever

I consider the belief in the afterlife amongst population to be a key component in gaining military numbers. A soldier who believes they are to be rewarded in an afterlife will much more willingly work with a high chance of dieing than one who doesn't have some form of faith.

As has been shown, religion itself is inherently biased toward those with a fear of death. Further, it's just non-sequitur, your point does not follow.

It is most certainly possible that there is a social cohesion and "like-minded grouping" effect of religion in the military, where those who "believe the same" have stronger social bonds.

There is also a great likelihood that the government seeks ways to manipulate people under it's rule into fighting for "their country," and that religion itself can often serve as a tool and conduit for this manipulation.


However, I struggle to accept that these likelihoods and actions have anything whatsoever to do with a belief in an afterlife. It's like saying that the health benefit in apples is in their color.

[Ahmabeliever]

You are correct! Good Sir's.

And I was wrong. What was I thinking...

It's like saying that the health benefit in apples is in their color.

Well, actually, canthaxinthin is responsible for the red colouring which is a powerful antioxidant. So the previous statement is partially true for red apples.

[InfiniteNow]

Of course. I really need to give up analogies permanently.




Like I said, there is something to be said about the parallels, I just don't think it relates in any direct way to belief in an afterlife.

[modest]

I wonder if the line from 'A Few Good Men' is really a common Marine Corps saying:

Originally Posted by AFGM

Unit, Corps, God, Country

Meaning service to your country is more important than god or the corp. It was probably just a movie line

-modest

"...Private Santiago died because he had no honor...and God was watching."

and full metal jacket:

"Today... is Christmas! There will be a magic show at zero-nine-thirty! Chaplain Charlie will tell you about how the free world will conquer Communism with the aid of God and a few marines! God has a hard-on for marines because we kill everything we see! He plays His games, we play ours! To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls! God was here before the Marine Corps! So you can give your heart to Jesus, but your ass belongs to the Corps! Do you ladies understand?"

[REASON]

I imagine the percentages of people in the military that are religious are directly proportional to mainstream society. I do think the importance of religion in the military has become more prominent over the last decade or so, and certain religious preferences have been advocated which I consider dangerous, and should be curtailed.

To me, belief in an afterlife has always served as a coping mechanism in humankind as a result of our ability to contemplate our deaths. If belief in an afterlife is common among soldiers, it is not surprising considering they find themselves in peril.

I do not think that belief, or lack thereof, in an afterlife has any real affect on the capabilities or bravery of a combat soldier. They are driven by belief in the nobility of their cause, survival instincts, training, adrenaline, and comradery.

Never confuse the dedication of a soldier with the abuse of their Commander in Chief.

[Southtown]

Afterlife is not life. -- st

[nutronjon]

The Christmas before last Billy Graham did a Christmas season show that strongly put across the idea that a good Christian felt called by God to serve in Iraq. It was such a moving show, I almost signed up myself, and I am a old woman, who isn't Christian and is strongly opposed to war. I am saying, the emotional appeal to serve in Iraq was very strong, leaving me to think war is good religion and religion is good for war.

[Freddy]

Perhaps we should attempt to find some research about this subject, because no one has bothered to post any.

According to Gwyn Dyer in War the US Army was so concerned about the performance of WWII GI's under fire they commissioned a study by Colonel SLA Marshall. Marshall interviewed 400 infantry companies or 40,000 GI's and found that in this anonymous study only 15% to 25% of GI's fired their weapons or M-1 Garrands, in battle. Why would these brave soldiers stay in harms way and not fight? They were not cowards but they had been taught, "Thou shalt not kill", which was stronger than their basic training and propaganda against Germans and Japanese. Many of those who did fire their weapons said they did it protect fellow soldiers. To correct this the US Army decided to put men into 3-man cells within squads so they would build soldier relationships that would help them to fire their weapons. They also changed basic training to discount the religious doctrine and replace it with, "Thou shalt not murder", where in war killing the evil enemy is necessary and not the same as murder. In Korea Marshall claims that more than 50% of soldiers fired their weapons in battle.
However, there are detractors, who say that Marshall's research is suspect.

[Ahmabeliever]

Very interesting from both nutronjon and freddy.

I can see the commandment overriding the orders definately. So religious indoctrination is effective in altering troop behaviour, just leaves my theory to hang out and dry some more

Religion is used, by the infamous Billy Graham no less, and there will be scores of copycats, to gain military strength, but not in the context I proposed.

I even heard a pro-Iraq war preacher here in NZ 18 months ago. Was at a family thing and he talked about God's calling the US to war...

So Bush says God told him to go to war, the believers believe this, they tell their congregations to go off to war, and they march off to eternal glory fighting Gods fight. It happened an is still happening.

Of course this may only play a small part in the overall recruitment drive.

[Freddy]

Here is an article on lawsuits being filed against the US military for forcing religion on soldiers. From the article.

"On Sept. 17, the soldier and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) filed suit against Army Maj. Freddy Welborn and US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, charging violations of Hall's constitutional rights, including being forced to submit to a religious test to qualify as a soldier.

The MRFF plans more lawsuits in coming weeks, says Michael "Mikey" Weinstein, who founded the military watchdog group in 2005. The aim is "to show there is a pattern and practice of constitutionally impermissible promotions of religious beliefs within the Department of Defense."
Are U.S. troops being force-fed Christianity? | csmonitor.com