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06-11-2008, 09:04 AM
|  | In the Spatula Zone | | | | | Re: Universal time constant
I understand what you are saying Reason (I'm sure Modest does too). The differences here are ones of philosophy and science. Modest and I are taking the scientific approach and you and MTM are taking the philosophical approach. That's what threw me off at first. They are both valid viewpoints, but obviously, we can't use the philosophical perspective in physics. It's good stuff to think about though. 
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"There are no passengers on Spaceship Earth. We are all crew." - Marshall McLuhan
"We must not forget that when radium was discovered no one knew that it would prove useful in hospitals. The work was one of pure science. And this is a proof that scientific work must not be considered from the point of view of the direct usefulness of it." - Marie Curie |
06-11-2008, 11:53 AM
|  | Creating | | Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: U.S. Midwest
Posts: 1,674
| | | Re: Universal time constant
Reason,
What you have described is a Galilean transformation associated with Galilean relativity.
It makes the assumption that time is absolute. The time of one coordinate can simply be shifted on to the time of another coordinate. And this works (or is a close approximation) at slow relative speeds. If nothing in our universe moved relative to anything else (and you did correctly give that as your thought experiment in your last post) then we could easily assume time is universal and accurately use Galilean transformations.
But, this is not the case. We must assume time is relative to arrive at the Lorentz transformations which more accurately describe our universe. According to this method of transforming between two different coordinates (the earth and the sun as your example was) we have to consider the relative motion of the two and consider the speed of light constant in both. The assumption is that time is not constant but relative. This is an absolutely essential assumption. The consequences which were correctly predicted by relativity are length contraction and time dilation.
So, I believe this is the correct way to look at things. Not only is time offset because light takes a while to get to you - but the rate of time itself is offset by relative motion (and gravity).
For a more in depth look there is: World line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
that describes “present” and “present instant” in special relativity with a light cone rather than math which may work well for you. I’ll quote a bit: Quote: |
Originally Posted by wiki Although the light cones are the same for all observers, different observers, with differing velocities but coincident at an event or point in the spacetime, have world lines that cross each other at an angle determined by their relative velocities, and thus the present instant is different for them. The fact that simultaneity depends on relative velocity caused problems for many scientists and laymen trying to accept relativity in the early days. The illustration with the light cones may make it appear that they cannot be at 45 degrees to two lines that intersect, but it is true and can be demonstrated with the Lorentz transformation. The geometry is Minkowskian, not Euclidean. | I think Freeztar is right that we are looking at the same thing from two different sides. Hopefully some of the links I’ve given will get us closer to the same page. And, I agree this is really interesting to ponder.
Last edited by modest; 06-12-2008 at 12:19 AM.
Reason: typo
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06-11-2008, 12:17 PM
|  | Reasonably Reasonable | | Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Blue Springs, MO - USA
Posts: 1,147
| | | Re: Universal time constant
Quote:
Originally Posted by modest  Reason,
What you have described is a Galilean transformation associated with Galilean relativity.
Hopefully some of the links I've I’ve given will gut us closer to the same page. And, I agree this is really interesting to ponder. | Well, it's nice to know I have been maintaining an up-to-date philosophy. Me and Galileo, we would have had a hell of a time. 
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When what you believe is refuted by evidence, you are faced with a choice. |
06-11-2008, 05:29 PM
|  | Explaining |  Sponsor | Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia
Posts: 536
| | | Re: Universal time constant
It does seem like, with only one dimension of time, we're missing the big picture, doesn't it? |
06-11-2008, 05:41 PM
| | Explaining | Sponsor | Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia
Posts: 536
| | | Re: Universal time constant
Last edited by Overdog; 06-11-2008 at 05:53 PM.
Reason: Add link
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06-11-2008, 07:26 PM
|  | Astounding Vision | |  2 Many Bugs Champion! Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: South Eastern North Carolina, Cape Fear Region
Posts: 2,436
| | | Re: Universal time constant
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdog | HEY! I thought of the extra time dimension first  Just because I was totally off the wall with it doesn't mean it doesn't count? does it?   
__________________ Michael
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06-11-2008, 08:14 PM
| | In the Spatula Zone | | | | | Re: Universal time constant
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdog | I'm only about half way through the newest article from Peter referred to at the end of the wiki link above. The impression it gives me is that it is an article about the philosophy of science rather than actual science, though I can't be sure of this claim until I finish the article.
I still don't understand how he's presumably solved Zeno's Paradox.
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Hypography Science Forums Moderator
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"There are no passengers on Spaceship Earth. We are all crew." - Marshall McLuhan
"We must not forget that when radium was discovered no one knew that it would prove useful in hospitals. The work was one of pure science. And this is a proof that scientific work must not be considered from the point of view of the direct usefulness of it." - Marie Curie |
06-11-2008, 08:24 PM
| | In the Spatula Zone | | | | | Re: Universal time constant
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moontanman Just because I was totally off the wall with it doesn't mean it doesn't count? does it? | Nope! It's quite possible he is "off the wall with it" as well. (hey, that would make a great song name)
It's highly theoretical. It's interesting that the article first talks about adding one dimension of time, which through necessity requires an additional dimension of space. It then goes on to talk about string theory and how adding a dimension each of space and time could help string theory. From the outside looking in, this all seems a bit bizarre. Unfortunately, my lack of mathematical ability prevents me from exploring this too much further...
Nonetheless, it doesn't seem like this second dimension of time would necessarily give rise to a universal time constant.
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Hypography Science Forums Moderator
---
"There are no passengers on Spaceship Earth. We are all crew." - Marshall McLuhan
"We must not forget that when radium was discovered no one knew that it would prove useful in hospitals. The work was one of pure science. And this is a proof that scientific work must not be considered from the point of view of the direct usefulness of it." - Marie Curie |
06-11-2008, 08:46 PM
| | Astounding Vision | | 2 Many Bugs Champion! Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: South Eastern North Carolina, Cape Fear Region
Posts: 2,436
| | | Re: Universal time constant
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeztar Nope! It's quite possible he is "off the wall with it" as well. (hey, that would make a great song name)
It's highly theoretical. It's interesting that the article first talks about adding one dimension of time, which through necessity requires an additional dimension of space. It then goes on to talk about string theory and how adding a dimension each of space and time could help string theory. From the outside looking in, this all seems a bit bizarre. Unfortunately, my lack of mathematical ability prevents me from exploring this too much further...
Nonetheless, it doesn't seem like this second dimension of time would necessarily give rise to a universal time constant. | I wish I could understand Heim theory or have someone explain it to me in terms I could get a grip on but that doesn't seem likely either. ( I have heard the US airforce is wild about the idea and is suppressing any real attempts at explanation)
__________________ Michael
Nuclear is the only real option! http://www.nuclearspace.com/Liberty_ship_menupg.aspx
Who died and left you in charge? Captain Bipto!
The early bird might get the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese!
Life is the poetry of the universe.
Love is the poetry of life.
Over heard from a three year old, "Daddy why do my toes get sticky when I eat strawberry jam?"
Never wrestle a troll. You both get dirty and the troll likes it | | |
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