Brain Wiring Redux

[questor]

Overdog, just because you haven't seen something does not mean it doesn't exist. All things have not yet been discovered, and all theories or propositions are not neccesarily scientific fact. As far as brain wiring, the wiring is genetic and heritable. There can be no argument on this point, the argument is whether this wiring can make a person lean to the liberal side or the conservative side in politics.

[Overdog]

Originally Posted by questor

...the argument is whether this wiring can make a person lean to the liberal side or the conservative side in politics.

Yes, I get that.

But the proposition you are arguing in favor of is an extraordinary one, and needs to be backed up with extraordinary evidence, which, as you have conceeded, isn't there.

So, like others, I have to wonder what underlying beliefs motivate you to argue in favor of the proposition?

[questor]

Overdog, are you having trouble understanding that new concepts and new inventions happen constantly for which there is no previous ''extraordinary evidence'' in the scientific literature?
You asked: ''So, like others, I have to wonder what underlying beliefs motivate you to argue in favor of the proposition?'' My question to you is:
Why do you ask ?
The answer for me is.. observation, curiosity, and ratiocination. Pass it on to the ''others''.

[Zythryn]

Questor, I am not sure if you are intentionally being vague or if it just is happening that way.
Without any defensive posturing, can you answer this simple question.
Is your supposition that this 'brain wiring' you refer to set at birth, or by experience? If both, about what percentage (rough guess of course).

Even if this were true, why should a 'test' be applied to people running for office? Can we not tell based on their platform? This point may deserve a thread of its own.

Are you aware the definitions of liberal and conservative have changed many times in history?

Finally, I don't think you can label most people as one or the other. Most have aspects of both. For example, I don't think you could label me either one (take your best shot though).

[questor]

Zythryn, thanks for your polite questions. Here are the answers:
''Is your supposition that this 'brain wiring' you refer to set at birth, or by experience? If both, about what percentage (rough guess of course).''
The genetic framework for neural wiring is set at birth. As it matures, thought processes may cause some new anastomoses with existing neurons and environmental occurrences may alter and/or add to thought perception.
But, as the individual matures, he tends to favor one hemisphere over the other. ( 40% of the voting public are liberal, 40% conservative--rough guess)
''Even if this were true, why should a 'test' be applied to people running for office? Can we not tell based on their platform? This point may deserve a thread of its own.''
As we currently elect our politicians, we know very little about how they would conduct the business of the people. Take Obama--what will he do about taxes? welfare? Iraq? Racial questions? The economy? Are we to be socialists or capitalists? Shouldn't people know? Platforms change and politicians lie. They do not keep their promises. Do you have a better way to
determine suitability for the job?
''Are you aware the definitions of liberal and conservative have changed many times in history?''
I am only concerned about the current situation.
''Finally, I don't think you can label most people as one or the other. Most have aspects of both. For example, I don't think you could label me either one (take your best shot though).''
I agree there is crossover, but the situation is true for millions. Why did 50 million people vote for Kerry and 50 million vote for Bush in the last election? As far as you are concerned, I can't tell without an analysis of your positions on issues. However, if you don't know what you are, then I would guess you are a middle of the roader with a lean to the left.

[Zythryn]

Questor, I am still trying to nail down how much you think is genetic and how much is environment. When you say 'some' does that mean 1%, 10%, 50%, 90%? Again, just roughly. I think upbringing and events that occur in society and in a persons immediate surrounding play a much larger role than you do. However I don't want to mistakenly think you are applying a small percentage if that isn't the case.

In general, I think you have the cart before the horse.
While 'liberals' and 'conservatives' may use different parts of their brains. This is not the Cause of their politacal slant, but the effect.

[Zythryn]

Sorry, had to move downstairs.
Now, regarding the test.
Are you suggesting that any such 'test' regarding which parts of the brain a canidate uses most would be more reliable than asking the canidate what they plan to do?
Are these brain usage patterns subject to change? If so, couldn't the canidate change their mind? I don't see any real value to such a test as it would be less acurate than simply asking the person. I don't see any way to get the 'resolution' you are looking for. I.E. do you really think a test could be created that would tell you how a canidate for senate would vote on a specific upcoming bill?
I understand the desire for humans to label people. It is generally based out of fear or insecurity. It is comforting in a way to be able to pigeonhole people. However, I think that is a political discussion, not a scientific one. If you would like to discuss this in more detail I would again suggest another thread.

[REASON]

One of the problems I've had all along with this whole concept questor is the simplistic way you attempt to categorize people politically. On the left are varying degrees of Liberals, and on the right are varying degrees of Conservatives.

But what is this relative to? Are we talking economics or social issues when looking at a linear left/right scale. If we are talking economics, then the left represents greater government control of the markets or Communism, and the right represents more of a free market or free trade mentality, these days referred to as Neoliberalism. If it is a social scale, the left represents Libertarianism and the right represents Authoritarianism.

But a person's political orientation is a combination of economic and social concerns with respect to government involvement, so simply looking at one scale that tries to denote liberals on the left and conservatives on the right is too simplistic and inadequate when attempting to identify where a person and their political "brain wiring" fall within the overall political spectrum.

A website I found called PoliticalCompass.org briefely describes these distinctions and provides a quick test that can be taken that can help someone see where they tend to fall on the grid below.

Welcome to The Political Compass™
There's abundant evidence for the need of it. The old one-dimensional categories of 'right' and 'left', established for the seating arrangement of the French National Assembly of 1789, are overly simplistic for today's complex political landscape. For example, who are the 'conservatives' in today's Russia? Are they the unreconstructed Stalinists, or the reformers who have adopted the right-wing views of conservatives like Margaret Thatcher?

On the standard left-right scale, how do you distinguish leftists like Stalin and Gandhi? It's not sufficient to say that Stalin was simply more left than Gandhi. There are fundamental political differences between them that the old categories on their own can't explain. Similarly, we generally describe social reactionaries as 'right-wingers', yet that leaves left-wing reactionaries like Robert Mugabe and Pol Pot off the hook.

Based on known political statements and actions, the image below provides examples of where other famous politicians or political activists find themselves on the grid.


I took the test on two separate occasions, and both times ended up just right of center in the Libertarian Left quadrant, which suggests on average, I prefer less government with social issues, and more government with economic issues. I was somewhat surprised because I would have expected to be closer to the center, or even slightly right of center economically. But I do believe that with the right experiences and information, my position on the grid could shift.

Of course the myriad of potential combinations on the socio-economic political grid are likely to produce some serious complications to any particular scientific study that is attempting to find correlations with hemispheric brain orientation.

For example, someone who believes in free trade and is pro-life and seeks to make all abortion illegal, on one issue favors no government control, and favors total government control on the other. I would imagine that it would be unlikely that both of these positions combined would resonate specifically with left or right brain orientation since they are diametrically opposed with regard to governmental interference. Now consider all of the other potential combinations. How could we expect that genetic variation is accounting for all of these combinations of belief systems in individuals, particularly when external influences like the media can have effects on a person's beliefs that may be contrary to their genetic wiring?

Generally, I think this issue is far more complicated than is addressed by any of the studies you've presented related to political genetic predispositions or hemisphereic brain orientation.

[modest]

[questor]

It is a complex subject, and no one knows all the answers because definitive research has not been done. As you can see on this post, more and more information is being published on the subject. In order to get proper information, proper questions must be asked. It should be clear to anyone that a certain number of people are liberal because they vote for leaders who espouse certain liberal causes. Conservatives do the same.