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Old 06-15-2009   #91 (permalink)
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Re: Cold Core Model of Earth's Structure

Modest:
You may have found an error. I know I had trouble with the conversions when I was doing them. However, reducing the value would make the lateral pressures smaller than the hydrostatic pressures. That just cannot be true.

Moontanman:
No Coldco, your model cannot be a description of reality. Even at 9K hydrogen is not
metallic, adding hydrogen and helium to get the pressures necessary would raise the temps
though compression quite quickly. for a body of metallic hydrogen to form the size of the
earths core you would need an atmosphere like that of Uranus at least. The only way
possible to get an earth sized core of metallic hydrogen is by accumulating a Uranus
sized body of hydrogen gas. There is no way at any temps such a core could form in an
earth sized body. Not to mention you still haven't explained the mass and or gravitation
pull of the earth.

In Newtons proof that all mass can be considered to be located at an orbs center, he showed that regardless of distribution of mass in the shells the gravitational attraction on the orbs surfice would be equal to considering all mass to be located at its center. Hence moving mass from the core to the mantle doesn't change the outcome.

I guess I will have to inform Dr. Silvera that his diamond anvil results must be thrown out because Moontanman says you cannot get rid if the heat generated by pressure through convection, conduction or radiation. Once the heat is gone, you cannot have pressure create more unless the pressure changes.
Old 06-15-2009   #92 (permalink)
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Re: Cold Core Model of Earth's Structure

Quote:
In Newtons proof that all mass can be considered to be located at an orbs center, he showed that regardless of distribution of mass in the shells the gravitational attraction on the orbs surfice would be equal to considering all mass to be located at its center. Hence moving mass from the core to the mantle doesn't change the outcome.
That has nothing what so ever to do with what I am saying, if you are going to try and address my arguments please do not change them to suit you.

Quote:
I guess I will have to inform Dr. Silvera that his diamond anvil results must be thrown out because Moontanman says you cannot get rid if the heat generated by pressure through convection, conduction or radiation. Once the heat is gone, you cannot have pressure create more unless the pressure changes.
You can inform him of anything you please, that is not what I said and I don't give a rats ass about diamond anvils in labs. In the real world to make metallic hydrogen you have to have pressure, enough pressure to turn hydrogen into a metal. to do this you need thousands of miles of hydrogen gas because heavier elements will displace the hydrogen rather than compress it. You cannot cover hydrogen gas up with iron to press it into metallic hydrogen in the real world. In the real world iron goes to the center, hydrogen floats on top. Now what real world process can cause iron to float on top of hydrogen gas?


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Old 06-15-2009   #93 (permalink)
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Re: Cold Core Model of Earth's Structure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cold-co View Post
Modest:
You may have found an error.
I agree, and I'll again stress the significance in case I failed to do so adequately before: you've misapplied your own method obtaining answers that are off by a factor of 10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cold-co View Post
However, reducing the value would make the lateral pressures smaller than the hydrostatic pressures. That just cannot be true.
I agree, but I'm not sure what you mean by this. By definition, lateral stress cannot be less than hydrostatic (or "geostatic") pressure. Hydrostatic pressure means that pressure is equal on all sides. If you accept that earth's pressure is static (or "hydrostatic") then one wonders why you've decomposed lateral and vertical stresses in the first place. They must always be (more or less) equal.

Your assumptions, method, conclusions, and execution have thus far all appeared flawed. You might do well to revisit each.

~modest


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Old 06-16-2009   #94 (permalink)
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Re: Cold Core Model of Earth's Structure

You now have me with egg on my face, I should have been suspicious of my math from the get go because no one had calculated the gravitational attraction in that manner. Even though this leaves my mathematical skills in question, I stand by my initial post. The flattening equation is missing a component. If anyone is still interested I will gladly mail you a copy of my calculations concerning the horizontal force of gravity.
Old 06-17-2009   #95 (permalink)
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Thumbs down Lack of expalnations of problems with the “Earth has a hydrogen core” hypothesis

It’s generally accepted that the pressure at the Earth’s mantel-core boundary is about 1.36 \times 10^{11} \,\mbox{Pa} (source), which per the experiments referenced in post #57 “problem with the ‘Earth has a hydrogen core’ hypothesis” of this thread’s parent is within the range at which metallic hydrogen is known to occur at reasonable temperatures. The difficulty with they “Earth has a hydrogen core” hypothesis is not that it’s physically impossible, but the calculated density of the core is too low to account for the mass of the Earth as observed by its surface gravity, or for the presence of material of ordinary density in its mantel and crust. Although there’s little to no direct measurement of the density of metallic hydrogen at a given pressure, it’s believed to vary fairly linearly from it’s liquid density at atmospheric pressure. Thus, for hydrogen to be at the density required for the Earth’s core – around 10^7 \,\mbox{kg/m}^3 (source), the pressure would have to be being produced not just by gravity pulling the outer material toward it, but by some sort of exotic, strong container – a pressure vessel. At the pressure expected to exist at the Earth core, metallic hydrogen would be at about the density it’s believed to be in the greatest range of depths of Jupiter, near it’s mean density of 1.36 \times 10^6 \,\mbox{kg/m}^3.

Jupiter and other gas giant planets, it’s worth noting, are believed to consist of a layer of primarily hydrogen gas, over a layer of primarily liquid hydrogen, over a thick layer of metallic hydrogen, possibly over a small core with density and composition similar to Earth or other small, rocky planets – possibly, because while there’s scientific consensus that such a core existed during their formation, there’s uncertainty if these cores still exist, or if they have been melted and carried by convection currents into metallic hydrogen layer.

As I noted in “problem with the ‘Earth has a hydrogen core’ hypothesis”, even if it can be show to be physically possible that Earth, or any other body, has a dense metallic hydrogen core, to be accepted as a scientific hypothesis, a scientifically possible explanation of how the body got that way must be included.

Other than artificial engineering – which would be an extraordinary theory requiring extraordinary evidence – I can’t imagine the Earth having a pressure vessel contained core.

Another problem with the hypothesis is the Earth’s small mass compared to gas giants like Jupiter, which result in it having too little gravitational attraction to sweep up and retain elements with low density in a protoplanetary environment (whatever was present before the planets existed, and from which they were presumably formed). Were the Earth able to do accrete much hydrogen, it should, like Jupiter, currently have a mostly hydrogen atmosphere, so even without resorting to fundamental (and mathematically taxing) mechanical models of how bodies accrete and retain materials of different densities (Jean’s escape, etc.), we can conclude that despite the presence of ample hydrogen in the protoplanetary environment, bodies of Earth’s mass are unable to accrete and retain them. The only possible way around this problem I can imagine is to assume that the protoplanetary environment contained large, dense masses of metallic hydrogen at effectively zero pressure, which we know from theory, experiment, and observation of present-day interplanetary space not to be the plausible.

In short, intriguing and radical as the as “Earth has a hydrogen core” hypothesis is, I’ve seen no adequate explanation of these several serious problems with it, so must remain a supporter of the mainstream model of a primarily iron cored Earth.


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Old 06-18-2009   #96 (permalink)
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Re: Lack of expalnations of problems with the “Earth has a hydrogen core” hypothesis

Mr Christianson, hi there!
your package, containing a printout of your hydrogen core theory, and a CD, which I assume contains all your calculations, has arrived in good shape! Thank you.

Now, if you can just give me a day or three to take a look at it, I will get back to you.

Oh, by the way, I have been reading CraigD's posts for a couple of years, and have actually met him personally. I wish to assure you that his grasp of basic physics and math is quite sound.


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Old 06-18-2009   #97 (permalink)
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Re: Cold Core Model of Earth's Structure

CraigD:
In my original post I stipulated that the geodesist's calculation shows earth's moment of inertia dictates most of earth's mass be located in her core. I have no problem with their findings if they have included all components that restrict flattening in their equation. I believe there is another component that has been left out. When included the moment of inertia becomes equal the summation of the moments of inertia for the individual shells of a cold-core model whose shell densities are proportional to the speed of seismic waves passing through them. If my trigonometric calculations hold up, then we need to address the new monent of inertia. Peer review on something like this will not be friendly.
Pyrotex:
Thank you for taking the time to review my method of calculating the gravitational forces within the earth. I look forward to hearing from you.

Last edited by Cold-co; 06-18-2009 at 11:13 AM..
Old 07-17-2009   #98 (permalink)
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Re: Is religion harmful to society?

Pyrotec:
I'm still waiting for you to respond to my calculations. I'm not getting any younger.
Old 07-17-2009   #99 (permalink)
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Re: Cold Core Model of Earth's Structure

Cold-co,

I moved your most-recent post to this thread from the thread "Is religion harmful to society?" where I surmise you mistakenly posted it.

~modest


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Old 07-18-2009   #100 (permalink)
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Re: Cold Core Model of Earth's Structure

Didn't NASA show that the core is rotating faster than the surface, getting one rotation ahead about every 120 years?
Putting a New Spin on Earth's Core

...
Moderation note: This post and replies to it were moved to first 3 posts of this thread were moved to a new thread, Earth's core is rotating faster than its surface, because they have little to do with this thread’s theme, speculation that the Earth’s core is not composed primarily or iron

Last edited by CraigD; 07-23-2009 at 05:43 AM.. Reason: Added moderation note
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