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Old 06-04-2009   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

No answers can be made unless you post something. Try using the LaTex offered by this forum. It's not that hard to use.

I for one have no idea what you mean by horizontal and vertical gravity.
Old 06-04-2009   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Re: Cold-co power point http://members.cox.net/nchristianson3/part0.ppt
Old 06-04-2009   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cold-co View Post
My question for this forum is, “Have I done something wrong mathematically?”
Without seeing your math it seems rather impossible to answer that question. If you'd like members to analyze your model then you should go to the Alternative theories forum and start a thread on its topic. I'd suggest showing how you calculate this "horizontal acceleration".

~modest


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Old 06-04-2009   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Hi All:
Here are the results of my calculations.
Radius gv cold gh cold gv hot gh hot gv aver gh aver
6371 9.8331 10.0604 9.9307 8.0385 9.8253 9.7883
6370 9.8346 10.0715 9.8327 8.0434 9.8263 9.7998
6365 9.8381 10.1121 9.8399 8.0735 9.8306 9.8574
6359 9.8475 10.1943 9.8525 8.1349 9.8343 9.9264
6291 9.8625 10.9073 9.9326 8.6772 9.8173 10.6533
6116 9.5896 12.3340 9.8759 9.7748 9.3648 11.9878
6011 9.5305 13.0232 9.9336 10.2814 9.3448 11.9978
5961 9.5833 13.3707 10.0280 10.5344 9.2707 12.7471
5721 8.9975 14.9015 9.9450 12.6066 8.7429 13.8600
5671 9.0731 15.1980 10.6211 12.9735 8.8248 14.0673
5371 8.1993 16.4861 9.9468 13.2172 8.2447 15.0086
4871 6.8711 18.2949 9.9203 15.2165 7.5047 16.4868
4371 5.2188 19.6469 9.9668 17.3052 6.7336 17.8049
3871 3.1122 20.1582 10.2350 19.7396 5.9698 18.9608
3485 1.0304 19.0349 10.6725 22.3436 5.3613 19.6641
2900 0.8926 16.8419 9.2710 25.9242 4.4675 20.3327
2300 0.7240 15.9334 7.6043 28.8435 3.5435 21.0659
1700 0.5570 15.4330 5.7847 30.8358 2.6197 21.5241
1217 0.4372 15.2446 4.2219 32.2407 1.8750 21.8904
700 0.2639 15.1213 2.4838 32.8782 1.0785 21.9731
0 0.0000 14.9443 0.0000 32.0258 0.0000 21.5092

Gravitational accelerations (m/secsec) for the three models of Earth’s interior
Old 06-04-2009   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

I suppose what Cold-co is saying with vertical and horizontal gravity, is the following:

Imagine there is a shaft going all the way to the center of the Earth.

You hop into an elevator going down the shaft.

For every kilometer you descend, there's a kilometer's worth of mass overhead, and one less kilometer's worth of mass between you and the Earth.

In other words, you will experience gravity from mass distributed all around you - below you, overhead, etc. And the further you go down, the "less" you will weigh as you are now being attracted upwards as well as downwards. You will always feel a positive pull towards the center, because there will always be more mass there, but the resultant gravitational pull you'll feel will become less and less until you reach the very center of the Earth, where there is as much mass in all directions - in which case you will be perfectly weightless.

And the question he is asking, is what would this do to the classic "iron-core under immense pressure" model? Isn't the seismic interface between the inner and outer core the area of densest pressure, rather than the center, and isn't the pressure gradient there responsible for the seismic interface, rather than composition?

Have I got that right, Cold-co?


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Old 06-05-2009   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Yeah, I'd also guess Cold-co is saying something along those lines. Cold-co, I don't see how these numbers make sense:

Code:
Radius       gv cold         gh cold     gv hot       gh hot     gv aver       gh aver
6371	9.8331	10.0604	  9.9307	  8.0385	9.8253	  9.7883
I'm at about r=6371 km right now and I don't feel 10 m/s^2 "horizontal acceleration". The only acceleration I feel is downward. I would probably guess that you don't mean acceleration in the usual sense.

I don't know how you found those numbers, but I'll show you how I would do it. Consider a spot at the inner / outer core boundary r = 1,220 km (1220000 m). The mass beneath this spot is roughly 1.01 \times 10^{23} kg and the mass above it (at larger values of r) is roughly 60 times greater. The mass above can safely be ignored by the two proofs I gave the other day and the mass below follows:
F = \frac{GM}{r^2}
F = \frac{(6.67 \times 10^{-11} \ m^3 \ kg \ s^{-2})(1.01 \times 10^{23} \ kg)}{(1220000 \ m)^2} = 4.53 \ m/s/s
The gravitational acceleration at r= 1220 km (the inner / outer core boundary) is roughly 4.53 m/s/s toward the center. To calculate the pressure at this point we would need to consider the weight of the material above it.

Would you object, Cold-co, if I split this discussion about your model into it's own thread perhaps titled "Cold Core Model of Earth's Structure"?

~modest


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Old 06-05-2009   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boerseun View Post
I suppose what Cold-co is saying with vertical and horizontal gravity, is the following:...For every kilometer you descend, there's a kilometer's worth of mass overhead, and one less kilometer's worth of mass between you and the Earth. ...you will experience gravity from mass distributed all around you - below you, overhead, etc. And the further you go down, the "less" you will weigh as you are now being attracted upwards as well as downwards. ...
In an earlier post, I showed how to approach this problem.

Take a "shell" of the Earth. This shell will be a hollow sphere of some constant thickness. You may assume the outer surface of the shell is the surface of the Earth. We can relate this shell to the problem above by saying that the thickness of the shell is the same as the depth you have descended to in your vertical tunnel.

This shell, therefore, will contain ALL of the mass of the Earth that is "above" your depth. If you have descended 500 km down from the surface, then this shell will be 500 km thick.

Now, take any arbitrary point, P, anywhere on the inside of the hollow shell. Take any arbitrary point, s, that is actually in the mass of the shell itself. The point s can be specified by its radius from the Earth's center, r; the longitudinal angle, phi, from some given zero longitude; and the latitudinal angle, theta, measured from the equator plane of the Earth, with positive theta being the Northern hemisphere and negative theta being the Southern.

Calculate the force of gravity on YOU (at point P), from a tiny element of mass at point s.

There's nothing really complicated so far, we're just using Newton's law of gravity. The tricky part is the distance between the tiny mass at point s, and YOU at point P, must be expressed in terms of r(s), phi(s), theta(s), and also r(P), phi(P) and theta(P). We will use standard Polar coordinate system.

Now we use integral calculus. We assume constant density in the shell. This is not a problem, as you can always divide your shell into hundreds of really thin, thin sub-shells and give them each their own unique (but still constant) density.

We integrate over theta(s) from -90 degrees to +90 degrees.
We integrate over phi(s) from 0 degrees to 360 degrees.
We integrate over r(s) from r = (inner radius of the shell) to r = (outer radius of the shell)

We have now accumulated (integrated) ALL the gravitational forces on YOU at point P, from ALL the tiny masses from ALL points s, within the ENTIRE shell.

The sum total gravitational force is zero. (0) Nothing. None Nada Zipity-doo-da.

It does not matter where you choose your original point P, as long as it is inside the hollow of the shell.

This makes the whole problem SOOOOO much easier.
You can always ignore ALL the mass of the Earth at ALL depths less than YOUR depth.
That is, you can always ignore ALL the mass of the Earth ABOVE you.
Because it ALL cancels out, ALL the time, at ANY depth you like.
And this includes ALL gravitational forces, including those that are horizontal, vertical or anywhere in between.


The ONLY gravitational force you can possibly feel, will be from the sphere of the Earth at or below your depth. As you descend, that remaining sphere will get smaller of course, and will vanish as you reach the center of the Earth.

{{{ In my opinion, this is the most fascinating and awesome use of Integral Calculus in all of advanced freshman year physics. }}}


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Last edited by Pyrotex; 06-05-2009 at 09:27 AM..
Old 06-05-2009   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

To All:
When I was taking integral calculus in 1960 the prof said you can always check your answer with trigonometry. That statement is what prompted me to run a check on the gravitational forces within the earth. A few years back I was recovering from a heart bypass and had plenty of time to think about the problem and devised a way to trigonometrically calculate the forces (accellerations) of gravity from Newton's original proof that all mass can be considered to be located at the center, which makes it a point mass. Now, I could have easily looked at my schematic of forces diagram and concluded that horizontal vectors cancel out, as they do when using calculus, because calculus employes directional vectors; but directional vectors is not the nature of gravity, it is a bidirectional force and a bidirectional force cannot be cancelled by another bidirectional force, only matched in strength.
Charlie O posted a link to my PowerPoint presentation, which explains the reasoning behind my concern.
Modest: I know you would like to be rid of Charlie O and me, but we are talking earth science here. so I think this is where we belong.
Old 06-05-2009   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cold-co View Post
...I could have easily looked at my schematic of forces diagram and concluded that horizontal vectors cancel out, as they do when using calculus, because calculus employes directional vectors; but directional vectors is not the nature of gravity, it is a bidirectional force and a bidirectional force cannot be cancelled by another bidirectional force, only matched in strength. ...
The statement that I have bolded -- I do not understand. I have never heard of a "bidirectional vector". I do not understand why a force of any kind cannot be canceled by an equal but opposite force of the same kind.

Please explain this.


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Old 06-05-2009   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cold-co View Post
Hi All:
Here are the results of my calculations.
Radius gv cold gh cold gv hot gh hot gv aver gh aver
6371 9.8331 10.0604 9.9307 8.0385 9.8253 9.7883
6370 9.8346 10.0715 9.8327 8.0434 9.8263 9.7998
6365 9.8381 10.1121 9.8399 8.0735 9.8306 9.8574
6359 9.8475 10.1943 9.8525 8.1349 9.8343 9.9264
6291 9.8625 10.9073 9.9326 8.6772 9.8173 10.6533
6116 9.5896 12.3340 9.8759...
Cold-co,
what exactly do you expect us to do with this table of numbers?
what conclusion do you expect us to draw from it?

why don't you PLOT this data as three lines in a graph, showing which Earth-model goes with each line, and then INTERPET the PLOT, telling us what conclusion you draw from it all.
I can't speak for everybody here, but when anybody drops a huge table of numbers on me, about all they're going to get in return is a blank stare.


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