What Americans, USAans, yanks, beleive.

[Racoon]

Great Mike.. You don't favor the death penalty.

But let me say that not many Americans really give a rip if 42 cop killing,family murdering, SOB's get a needle in their arm this year. Thats a miniscule number

Polls are one thing. Capital Punishment is WAY down the list of serious concerns in this country right now.

Yeah, in a perfect society, the death penalty would be out of place.

Right now, who in their right mind really gives a rat's ass about some MoFo'er who killed people and spent 10 years on death row??

Seriously, there are more pressing concerns than the few perps on death row. Sociologically speaking. Mathematically speaking, and Economically speaking.

If you want to champion the cause of murder-rapists rights , be everyones guest.

[Zythryn]

This yank is a proponent of the death penalty.
I don't care if it isn't a effective deterent.
I don't support it out of vengence.
I support the death penalty solely on the basis of stopping these murderers from killing again.
That said, it obviously leads to limited cases, IMO, where it should be used.
Serial killers that will continue to do the same if released/escape.
Their guilt is absolutely assured.
The state (government) can't gaurentee society that such an individual would NEVER be released or escape.
I think the 1000 lives lost are worth 2000 innocents saved.

However, if we were to stop putting people in prison for minor drug offenses I believe we could get much closer to not needing the death penalty.

[modest]

Racoon,

It is more expensive to execute prisoners.

North Carolina found it was on average 2.16 million dollars cheaper to incarcerate a murderer for life than execute them. And, reviewing death penalty expenses, Kansas found it 70% more expensive to execute a prisoner than a commenserate non-death penalty case including all costs of incarceration. (source)

Another argument against the practice of execution is simply that a person cannot be set free if found innocent after he/she has been executed.

Also, there are many countries around the world that will not extradite to the united states. They claim this is because our legal system is barbaric referencing the death penalty. The direct result of the death penalty then, it can be argued, is the freedom of obviously guilty individuals who have fled to other countries.

I understand why you are saying it is insignificant, or in your words: "who in their right mind really gives a rat's ass". But, it does cause problems in my humble opinion.

Also,

Originally Posted by Racoon

If you want to champion the cause of murder-rapists rights , be everyones guest.

This statement has an ‘untrue premise’. It also has an ‘appeal to emotion’ and ‘mob appeal’. Supposedly these things are all signs of a bad argument in a debate setting. Here is an example with all three of these problems:

Everyone agrees - you need to give all your money to charity or the homeless people that you seem to hate so much are going to starve to death.

I’m not much interested in the rules for a good argument in debate. I also realize we're not in a debate class. But, what’s interesting is how ‘untrue premise’ ‘appeal to emotion’ and ‘mob appeal’ are exactly the three things that got Sacco and Vanzetti, 2 innocent people, executed in 1927. I’m not saying that’s significant, just interesting.

- modest

[Racoon]

Originally Posted by modest

Racoon,

It is more expensive to execute prisoners.

- modest

More expensive to execute than to detain indefinitely forever??
Are you sure about that?

Maybe in a few case that were appealed to the hilt with expensive lawyers in a couple states...
Don't mix and match Modest.

Other countries refusing to extradite to the US becuz' our laws are Barbaric?
Let them imprison the offenders for life then. Saves our tax-payers as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, Read the number of 42 who were actually excuted!
That many people die in traffic accidents in any given week.
Capital Punishment is Not a problem.

I find it funny that the same people who are against Capital Punishment are Pro-choice.

And those who are anti-abortion are Pro Death Penalty...


If you're going to terminate living cells, do it with consistancy!

For jesus h. christ

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by Racoon

More expensive to execute than to detain indefinitely forever??
Are you sure about that?

Maybe in a few case that were appealed to the hilt with expensive lawyers in a couple states...

Well, most states have endless automatic appeals, so yeah, the numbers do add up for virtually all capital punishment cases.

Of course as the Nazi's would point out, there's economies of scale that are not being exploited!

Originally Posted by Racoon

If you're going to terminate living cells, do it with consistancy!

Why be consistent? At least abortions are performed without subjective and possibly incorrect judgments being rendered! Unlike the courts, all zygotes are treated with absolute equanimity!

Capital punishment is our society's recognition of the sanctity of human life.”,
Buffy

[modest]

Originally Posted by Racoon

More expensive to execute than to detain indefinitely forever??
Are you sure about that?

That's what everything said when I looked it up - I provided a source. One study was done by the state of Kansas which is very conservative, so I don't think it is bias or anti-death-penalty activism. I think it really does cost more.

Originally Posted by Racoon

Maybe in a few case that were appealed to the hilt with expensive lawyers in a couple states...
Don't mix and match Modest.

Accusing me of 'mixing and matching' - whatever that means - does not detract from the truth of what I have said or the studies that support it. Instead of attacking me you could provide your own support for your own argument.

Originally Posted by Racoon

Other countries refusing to extradite to the US becuz' our laws are Barbaric?
Let them imprison the offenders for life then. Saves our tax-payers as far as I'm concerned.

That may not be satisfactory to the family of the victim or the prosecutor of the crime. Most importantly - the person who has fled is not always arrested. If arrested, they are sometimes released. Sometimes they are tried and found not guilty. There is no doubt but that capitol punishment complicates extradition and often works towards the fugitive's benefit.

Here is a quote from Barbra March. She is the mother of David March - a sheriff's deputy who was killed while on the job in 2002. The man that did the shooting fled to Mexico. His parents have been trying to get the Mexican government to go after the man responsible and trying to get congress to force the Mexican government:

We have waited two years and tried to get some justice. What we have found is that law enforcement is very frustrated. They're doing everything they can do, but it appears that [U.S.] law enforcement is wearing the handcuffs in this case, and in many cases like this.
They're not able to get these killers who have fled to Mexico. They're not able to get the Mexican government to extradite these people to come back here for American justice. ... They call it Article 4 of the Mexican Constitution — they will not extradite for murder or rape. Unless it's a predetermined sentence, they will not extradite these criminals.

What she means by "predetermined sentence" is how the Mexican government wants to see a verdict - and a verdict without the death penalty - before they will hand him over (or arrest him, apparently)

Personally, I don't think the Mexican government is right to deny extradition because we execute and they don't. But, they do have the right. It's this kind of thing that makes the death penalty NOT insignificant as you said it was.

Here is another quote from Barbra March which brings up a very good point:

Barbara: [Congress didn't know] That this treaty existed, and that people were fleeing California and literally getting away with murder. Not only that, but the incentive is there to murder.

Interviewer: How so?

Barbara: Because if you rob a convenience store and you get caught, they will extradite for that in Mexico. But if you kill the owner, they won't extradite for that. So the message has been clear — to murder.
This is leaving all of our citizens and our children very vulnerable, unprotected. And the first, the most important duty of the federal government is to honor the sovereignty of the United states and protect us from terrorism.

- modest

You can find the quotes and story of David March at this web page. It's really something.

[Mike C]

Originally Posted by Racoon

Great Mike.. You don't favor the death penalty.

But let me say that not many Americans really give a rip if 42 cop killing,family murdering, SOB's get a needle in their arm this year. Thats a miniscule number

Polls are one thing. Capital Punishment is WAY down the list of serious concerns in this country right now.

Yeah, in a perfect society, the death penalty would be out of place.

Right now, who in their right mind really gives a rat's ass about some MoFo'er who killed people and spent 10 years on death row??

Seriously, there are more pressing concerns than the few perps on death row. Sociologically speaking. Mathematically speaking, and Economically speaking.

If you want to champion the cause of murder-rapists rights , be everyones guest.

This is one Mike that does support capital punishment.
Like I said on an earlier post here that when a verdict is brought in of 'absolute' guilt, then execute.
There are such cases. With this type of conviction, appeals would be reduced to just one or two.

This would eliminate the unlimited appeals allowed.

Execution can be very cheap since their would be thousands of volenteers that would be willing to do the job for free.

Those endless appeals are just done by greedy lawyers that are enriching themselves.

Naturally, I would not find a person guilty on slim evidence like an identification of a defendent from 30 feet in the darkness of nights as evidence for a conviction and especially homicide that involves execution.

It is all a matter of judgement that does not involve bias or any other such reason.

If people can accept religions that performed purification genocides, than why quibble about the salvation of a criminal that killed for his own reasons only.

Mike C

[modest]

Originally Posted by Mike C

This is one Mike that does support capital punishment.

Do you think the standard used for finding guilt in capitol punishment cases should be different than non-capitol cases. In other words, do you think it should be harder to find a person guilty if there is a chance they could be executed? Is it always 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'?

-modest

[DougF]

modest
Do you think the standard used for finding guilt in capitol punishment cases should be different than non-capitol cases. In other words, do you think it should be harder to find a person guilty if there is a chance they could be executed? Is it always 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'?

I think i the cases of mas murders 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' should be
'no shadow of a doubt' and i think 30 years on death row before they are put to death is to long, but let me just say, I am in favor of the death penalty but it must be 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by DougF

I think i the cases of mas murders 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' should be
'no shadow of a doubt' and i think 30 years on death row before they are put to death is to long, but let me just say, I am in favor of the death penalty but it must be 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'.

Many jurors are now not bringing in a guilty verdict becase they do not want blood on their hands.
There is nearly always a shadow of doubt even with a confession.