Neanderthals

[Galapagos]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Thanks for the post dude, Neanderthals fascinate me, it's interesting that Humans and Neanderthals first encountered each other in what is now known as Palestine. The old testament even mentions a rivalry between two different types of people (brothers) one hairy and one not, one was a hunter and the other was a farmer that occurred due to wanting the blessing of the patriarch of a family. Just a biblical point of view that occurred to me back in my youth......

I haven't read about neandertahl and man meeting before. Was there any evidence indicating that our (closer)ancestors killed/fought them?

One of the more interesting things about Neanderthal to me is their burial practices:
Shanidar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of all the skeletons found at the cave, it is Shanidar IV which provides the best evidence for Neanderthal burial ritual. The skeleton of an adult male aged between 30-45 years was discovered in 1960 by Ralph Solecki and was positioned so that he was lying on his left side in a partial fetal position. Routine soil samples which were gathered for pollen analysis in an attempt to reconstruct the palaeoclimate and vegetational history of the site from around the body were analysed eight years after its discovery. In two of the soil samples in particular, whole clumps of pollen were discovered in addition to the usual pollen found throughout the site and suggested that entire flowering plants (or at least heads of plants) had entered the grave deposit. Furthermore, a study of the particular flower types suggested that the flowers may have been chosen for their specific medicinal properties. Yarrow, Cornflower, Bachelor’s Button, St. Barnaby’s Thistle, Ragwort or Groundsel, Grape Hyacinth, Joint Pine or Woody Horsetail and Hollyhock were represented in the pollen samples, all of which have long-known curative powers as diuretics, stimulants, astringents as well as anti-inflammatory properties.

There have been some valid skeptical objections(discussed in the article), but it sure is interesting to imagine that this may be nascent religious practices.
Neanderthals are also known to bury their dead with tools, bones of game animals, and certain natural pigments.
Another cool topic pertaining to ritual behavior in Neanderthal is the evidence for ritual cannibalism/defleshing:
Neanderthal - Cannibalism or ritual defleshing? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Intentional burial and the inclusion of grave goods are the most typical representations of ritual behavior in the Neanderthals and denote a developing ideology. However, another much debated and controversial manifestation of this ritual treatment of the dead comes from the evidence of cut-marks on the bone which has 'historically been viewed' as evidence of ritual defleshing.

The wiki article is kind of vague here, but the evidence seems to point to ritual burial in the above case, imo.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Galapagos

I haven't read about neandertahl and man meeting before. Was there any evidence indicating that our (closer)ancestors killed/fought them?

.

I was just paraphrasing a biblical passage that could be interpreted to mean a struggle between Sapiens and Neanderthal. As far as i know there is no evidence for any specific contact between the two types of human. I am sure it occurred but so far no evidence it did.

[modest]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

I was just paraphrasing a biblical passage that could be interpreted to mean a struggle between Sapiens and Neanderthal.

Interesting.

I recall reading that there is evidence Neanderthals had red hair and were perhaps freckled (ginger). The story of Esau that you refer to (Gen 25:25) makes a rather big deal about Esau's red hair, "red all over like a hairy garment, they named him Esau" they even called him "Edom" which apparently (besides the literal place) means 'red pottery' in Hebrew.

I doubt there was ever a Neanderthol named Esau, but, the parallels are interesting nonetheless. Good reference MTM.

~modest

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by modest

Interesting.

I recall reading that there is evidence Neanderthals had red hair and were perhaps freckled (ginger). The story of Esau that you refer to (Gen 25:25) makes a rather big deal about Esau's red hair, "red all over like a hairy garment, they named him Esau" they even called him "Edom" which apparently (besides the literal place) means 'red pottery' in Hebrew.

I doubt there was ever a Neanderthol named Esau, but, the parallels are interesting nonetheless. Good reference MTM.

~modest

There are a few passages in the bible that if taken without needing to see them as word for word truth seem to indicate some interesting things. Of course if that passage is somehow a mention of sapiens, Neanderthal confrontation then it would have to be from 50,000 years ago and not 6,000 years. Of course almost anything can be read into passages from the bible, sadly.....

[modest]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Neanderthal confrontation then it would have to be from 50,000 years ago and not 6,000 years.

Right. The passage (gen. 25-28) was certainly written by someone referring to the past. Even bible thumpers should agree to this. Like the story of Noah or Abraham, it is the retelling of a fable which isn't really dated in the text, but clearly happened before the text was written. In the same way that serious scholars entertain the possibility that Noah's flood was a real flood in the black sea area, I'm left wondering... were there ever Neanderthals in the Middle East?

~modest

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

I was just paraphrasing a biblical passage that could be interpreted to mean a struggle between Sapiens and Neanderthal. As far as i know there is no evidence for any specific contact between the two types of human. I am sure it occurred but so far no evidence it did.

The Clan of the Cave Bear series of books by Jean Auel takes this theme and develops it based on finds in a cave.

The Clan of the Cave Bear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by wiki

...The archaeological and paleontological research for this book was carried out by Auel from her public library and by attending archaeological conventions. Some of the descriptions are based on the cave burial at Shanidar

The wiki page on the book series has some other links on Neanderthals hooking up with Cro Magnon: >> Neanderthal interaction with Cro-Magnons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by modest

Right. The passage (gen. 25-28) was certainly written by someone referring to the past. Even bible thumpers should agree to this. Like the story of Noah or Abraham, it is the retelling of a fable which isn't really dated in the text, but clearly happened before the text was written. In the same way that serious scholars entertain the possibility that Noah's flood was a real flood in the black sea area, I'm left wondering... were there ever Neanderthals in the Middle East?

~modest

I thought I had touched on this but the first place Neanderthal and Sapiens fossils are found together in the same time frame is Palestine. It is thought the "first" encounter occured there. Many good finds come from Iran and other areas of the middle east. The mountain caves of that region would seem to be a great habitats for both Sapiens and Neanderthals.

[modest]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

I thought I had touched on this but the first place Neanderthal and Sapiens fossils are found together in the same time frame is Palestine.

Yes, you did touch on that unambiguously and I apparently missed it Excellent links and research Sr. MoonMan

~modest

[Moontanman]

Neanderthals are fascinating for many reasons, i often wonder if they are at the root of some of our myths and legends passed down by word of mouth for thousands of years, I also wonder if this would be possible. If one creature could be brought back by genetic engineering or cloning many would pick a T-REX or a other dinosaur but I would pick Neanderthals, I think we would learn a lot about what it means to be human from them. I thought of a connection between Neanderthals and Esau way before i knew about the Palestinian connection so it has been of interest to me for a long time.

[Galapagos]

Competition, Not Climate Change, Led To Neanderthal Extinction, Study Shows
ScienceDaily (Dec. 30, 2008) — In a recently conducted study, a multidisciplinary French-American research team with expertise in archaeology, past climates, and ecology reported that Neanderthal extinction was principally a result of competition with Cro-Magnon populations, rather than the consequences of climate change.

The study was reported in the open access journal PLoS ONE:
PLoS ONE: Neanderthal Extinction by Competitive Exclusion