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Old 05-14-2007   #1 (permalink)
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CMBR as Evidence

The CMBR is portrayed as a 'clincher' evidence in SUPPORT of the BB.
Using their own data, I can show that this is ludicrous.

The CMBR is supposed to be at a redshift of 1000 from the time of its origin to our current period in time. That is over a time period of 14x10^9 years.
The BBU is expanding at a 'uniform' rate.

So if we take this age and 'divide' it by 1000, we get a redshift of one for every 14x10^6 years.
Transforming this age into light years and applying it to the Virgo Cluster distance of 54x10^6 light years. we get a redshift of 3 (54x10^6/14x10^6).

Yet we know that the current redshift for that cluster is in the range of
.0035 to .004. This is just a PARTIAL redshift.

Any comments?

NS
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Old 05-14-2007   #2 (permalink)
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Re: CMBR as Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Science View Post
Yet we know that the current redshift for that cluster is in the range of
.0035 to .004. This is just a PARTIAL redshift.

Any comments?

NS
Yes. What's a 'PARTIAL' redshift?

Any shift in wavelength for a receding object would be termed 'redshifted' because it will shift visible light towards the red end of the spectrum. It's simply an easy word to remember, but is not only limited to visible light. Radiowaves, microwaves, each and every frequency is shifted towards the side of the electromagnetic spectrum with longer wavelenths (for redecing objects. It's the other way around for approaching objects - very much Doppler-like), which happens to be towards the red side for the visible spectrum. But even you would appear redshifted to someone you're walking towards, if he had sensitive enough equipment. That's how the police pull you over for speeding. Every conceivable object is completely redshifted or blueshifted to any other object, unless they are both static in respect to each other. But nothing can be 'partially' redshifted. You're either redshifted or blueshifted. If you're not, then you're static with respect to the observer.


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Old 05-16-2007   #3 (permalink)
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Re: CMBR as Evidence

Boerseun

A partial redshift is when the shift does not exceed one wavelength.

Lets take red light, for example. Its wavelength is 6.56x10^-7 meters long. This would be equal to a redshift of 'one' for red light. When a redshift is given as a percentage of a wavelength, it has to be divided into 'one' to determine the portion (1/4, 1/2, 100th, etc).

NS

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Old 05-16-2007   #4 (permalink)
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Re: CMBR as Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Science View Post
Boerseun

A partial redshift is when the shift does not exceed one wavelength.
Now you're just making stuff up. The core of the redshift concept is the shift itself, hence any movement toward the red would be a shift... a redshift.

What is "one wavelength?" That's pretty ridiculous as a comparison point, since it is a dynamic variable... Length. It'd be like telling someone to measure against one volume. Huh?


Perhaps you meant to say a change in frequency equal to one wavelength of pure red light?

If I'm off base here, let me know. I'd love to read some articles on this concept of "partial redshifts" and measuring against "one wavelength."



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Old 05-16-2007   #5 (permalink)
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Re: CMBR as Evidence

definition of redshift:


So where can you put partial in there and even if you call what others call redshift a partial redshift, what does that change?


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Old 05-17-2007   #6 (permalink)
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Re: CMBR as Evidence

Perhaps he was a bit confusing but I'd say he meant z < 1 by "partial" redshift.


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Old 05-17-2007   #7 (permalink)
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Re: CMBR as Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfiniteNow View Post
Now you're just making stuff up. The core of the redshift concept is the shift itself, hence any movement toward the red would be a shift... a redshift.

What is "one wavelength?" That's pretty ridiculous as a comparison point, since it is a dynamic variable... Length. It'd be like telling someone to measure against one volume. Huh?


Perhaps you meant to say a change in frequency equal to one wavelength of pure red light?

If I'm off base here, let me know. I'd love to read some articles on this concept of "partial redshifts" and measuring against "one wavelength."



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I moved northward one frequency.
The dog scratched it's ear 4 degrees Kelvin.
It's kangaroo in apple, yes?
A redshift is measured by comparing the observed spectrum of an object to the Suns spectrum.
Since the Sun radiates a continuum, the colors blend.
So, IMHO, I believe they use the hydrogen absorption lines to make these measurements or possibly the 'sodium' lines that conform to exact wavelengths.
These can be measured by computer to give exact redshifts.
When an object shows a shift of 'one' wavelength, regarding any line that exhibits that shift, it is a shift of 'one'.
Any fractional shifts are given in percentages IMHO.

Of course, I do not buy the 'recessional' velocity of an expanding space that is derived from these percentages.

NS
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Old 05-17-2007   #8 (permalink)
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Re: CMBR as Evidence

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanctus View Post
definition of redshift:


So where can you put partial in there and even if you call what others call redshift a partial redshift, what does that change?
The figures I quoted for the Virgo Cluster are given in percentages.
For M87, it is .004. Does that look like 'one' to you? For a large number of galaxies in that cluster, it averaged out to be .0035.

NS
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Old 05-17-2007   #9 (permalink)
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Post The history and conventional terminology of astronomical spectroscopy

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Science View Post
A redshift is measured by comparing the observed spectrum of an object to the Suns spectrum.
Since the Sun radiates a continuum, the colors blend.
So, IMHO, I believe they use the hydrogen absorption lines to make these measurements or possibly the 'sodium' lines that conform to exact wavelengths.
These can be measured by computer to give exact redshifts.
This is essentially correct – as the emission spectrum of a star is a fairly smooth continuum, the discrete absorption lines of other elements are better to use in measuring its red/blue shift. Modern astronomical spectroscopy identifies thousands of absorption lines, while the earliest published scientific papers, ca. 1817, mention 10 lines resulting from 6 molecules, O2, H, Na, Ca, Fe, and CH.

The spectral shift of stars were first systematically measured in the mid 19th century, long before the availability of computers. The “old fashioned” technique involved comparing the emission lines of known sources, such as sodium vapor lamp, to those of a star being viewed. By the mid 19th century, this was done mostly using photographic plates. In its early days, it was done by hand, marking a piece of target paper with a fine pen. In both cases, shift is measured using high precision mechanical measuring devices – rulers.
Quote:
When an object shows a shift of 'one' wavelength, regarding any line that exhibits that shift, it is a shift of 'one'.
Any fractional shifts are given in percentages IMHO.
I interned in an observatory (), but never heard the term “fractional redshift”, and can’t see any significance or utility to such a term for ordinary measurments.

(An internet search reveals the term "fractional redshift" use in papers such as this one, in which it refers to a very small effect where photons lose energy via absorption and reemission by free electrons in a plasma in a magnetic field, such as the star’s corona)

The usual measure of spectral shift - redshift or blueshift - is called “z”.

If , it is called redshift. If , it is called blueshift. If , no spectral shift has been measured. , that is, z must be greater than -1, and has no upper limit.

It’s also common to describe redshift by the velocity required to produce the observed redshift. For example, we observe an average redshift of the stars in our neighboring Andromeda galaxy of about , but usually state it as -300000 m/s

So a redshift of indicates a doubling of the wavelength of the observed photon vs. its emitted wavelength, which is equivalent to a half-ing of its frequency. There’s nothing particularly special about integer redshifts, other than that they are unusually high. Typical s for objects like rapidly orbiting binary stars, planets, or stars orbiting galactic centers are . The greatest stellar redshift observed to date is , or tentatively, .

The cosmological redshift of the first light predicted by the Big Bang model to have been emitted is much higher: , suggesting that the peak frequency of that light was 1090 times the current observed peak frequency of 160 GHz for the CMBR. This redshift is not explained as being due to the source of the CMBR receding from the observer at a high velocity, and is not measured by comparing absorption lines in its spectrum. It is explained as being due to the expansion of space, a much more complicated (and less directly observable) phenomenon.


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Old 05-17-2007   #10 (permalink)
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Post Redshift z and relative velocity of M87

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Science View Post
The figures I quoted for the Virgo Cluster are given in percentages.
For M87, it is .004. Does that look like 'one' to you? For a large number of galaxies in that cluster, it averaged out to be .0035.
A redshift of is consistent with observations of a fairly nearby galaxy.

Note that “.004” is a pure number, not a percentage. As a percentage (a common way that numbers used to represent ratios are written) it would be written “0.4%”. More often than not, I think, mathematicians and scientists avoid the use of percentages, other than in casual conversation.

Because it is small, one can use this redshift to approximate the velocity of the object being observed as . The published value for M87 is 1307000 ± 7000 m/s, equating to a redshift of about .


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