Hydrogen escape into space, how much?

[CharlieO]

My Original Post: If anyone has a reference to a study which quantifies the total amount of hydrogen escaping from Earth into space on a daily or annual basis, please provide same.

CraigD responded: Appealing to hypography members at large is never a bad approach, but not a sure one, so I’d plan on having to find or derive this data on your own.

Well, I've been unable to find or derive this data on my own, so I'm appealing to the well informed members of Hypography for a valid reference.

Regards, CharlieO

[CharlieO]

No one seems to have yet found a scientific study as to how much hydrogen is escaping from Earth on a daily or annual basis. However, I predict that when the amount is measured and published, it will support my assumption of there having been a substantial amount of hydrogen escaping over time. If so, there must have been a substantial reservoir of hydrogen within Earth from the time of Earth's formation. If so, it would have most likely contained metallic hydrogen, a more logical answer to what might be the compostition of Earth's core.

After all, the original assumption of Earth having an iron core was based on the need for a ferromagnetic material to explain the existance of Earth's magnetic field. Unfortunately, scientists at that time were ignorant of both the existance and physical properties of metallic hydrogen, which, also being magnetic, could create Earth's magnetic field without any need for the illogical spinning of an inner core within an outer core.

Regards, CharlieO

[freeztar]

Hey Charlie, where've ya been?

Originally Posted by CharlieO

No one seems to have yet found a scientific study as to how much hydrogen is escaping from Earth on a daily or annual basis.

To be honest, I haven't looked myself. I'll try to do so later though. The weekends are typically pretty busy with me. The lady likes to go out and spend money.

However, I predict that when the amount is measured and published, it will support my assumption of there having been a substantial amount of hydrogen escaping over time. If so, there must have been a substantial reservoir of hydrogen within Earth from the time of Earth's formation. If so, it would have most likely contained metallic hydrogen, a more logical answer to what might be the compostition of Earth's core.

Or perhaps it is locked in water, on the crust.

Something that has not been mentioned (as far as I can remember) is the potential difference in Earth's mass considering both an iron and hydrogen core. If it is possible to calculate this then we might be able to compare it with our orbital path and the gravitational influence of the sun. I wouldn't know where to begin to calculate this though.

After all, the original assumption of Earth having an iron core was based on the need for a ferromagnetic material to explain the existance of Earth's magnetic field. Unfortunately, scientists at that time were ignorant of both the existance and physical properties of metallic hydrogen, which, also being magnetic, could create Earth's magnetic field without any need for the illogical spinning of an inner core within an outer core.

Regards, CharlieO

Why is the spinning illogical?

[CharlieO]

FREEZTAR: Long story, very busy with late in life blended family matters, hers and mine; totaling 13 children with 11 spouses, 42 grandchildren, 43 great-grandchildren and 7 great-great-grandchildren, with 2 more due soon. The holidays are now a financial disaster.

I also spent a lot of time trying to find a scientific study as to how much, in total mass, of hydrogen is escaping from Earth's atmosphere on a daily or annual basis. Plus, I waited for an answer from Hypography members. There has been none to date, other than your appreciated concern.

I did find many references stating that hydrogen does escape, most assuming this starts with the solar radiation separation of hydrogen from largely water vapor and methane in the stratosphere; with the separated Oxygen and Carbon combining into CO2.

One 1995 NASA report has the escaping hydrogen visible in a comet like tail as far as Moon's orbit, but no quantity was measured or even estimated.

However, even a small amount of escaping hydrogen, a few tonnes per day for instance, might represent trillions of tonnes over the duration of Earth's relatively solid existence. I must also add the formation of Proto-Earth most likely required a long period of time from an initial eddy within a cloud of gas to solidification. Thus, it seems logical to me that there must have been an enormous reservoir of hydrogen contained within Proto-Earth at the point of its solidification and Earth's current core may only be what remains of a much larger initial core; still effusing the hydrogen that is escaping into space today.

Thus the proven existence of a relatively large amount of hydrogen escaping into space should indicate the possibility of a relatively large hydrogen reservoir within Earth. Perhaps the core?

After all, another Earth-like planet has been photographed trailing relatively large amounts of escaping hydrogen, effectively evaporating in the process, so why not Earth?

As for spinning: First, this seems impossible to me, especially at core pressures. Second, when seismologists first discovered movement on the surface of Earth's inner core, it was assumed this was the origin of the plumes of magma which were assumed to rise from the core, pass thru the mantle and create volcanoes. Third, being as iron and whatever are assumed to be its current alloy are non-magnetic above 800c, the believers in a hot iron core then assumed the movement of the inner core, as described by seismologists, was actually a spinning of Earth's inner core within its outer core, thus generating Earth's magnetic field.

So we have two assumptions from a series of widely varied seismological observations: Rising magma plumes or spinning inner core. Can't both be right and both may be wrong.

First, creating a magnetic field using any ferromagnetic material heated above 800c is impossible as far as I can determine. Second, the rate at which the surface of the inner core is assumed to be spinning, varies widely the researcher. The latest published estimate of spin rate is slower than an earthworm crawls; effectively incapable of creating a magnetic field even with cold iron.

A third assumption, using the same seismological observations of movement on the inner core, is this is most likely hydrogen rising in effusing plumes, changing the density of mantle materials as it passes thru on its way to Earth's surface, then largely venting thru volcanoes as hydrogen compounds, eventually separating in the stratosphere and then escaping into space.

Thus, I am still intensely interested in learning how much hydrogen is escaping into space as a means of establishing the existence of a hydrogen reservoir within Earth. All assistance will be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards, CharlieO

[freeztar]

I found this outdated link on the caltech site. I haven't delved into yet as I don't have time right now, but skimming through, it gives numbers for the amount of H2 lost.

http://etd.caltech.edu/etd/available...an_rt_1969.pdf

Should make for some good Saturday night reading.

[cyclonebuster]

It roughly equal to the amout coming in from the sun! Find that number and you have your answer!

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by cyclonebuster

It roughly equal to the amout coming in from the sun! Find that number and you have your answer!

What do you mean by this? I'm unaware of any evidence that H2 streams into Earth's atmosphere from the sun. Can you provide some evidence of this occurring?

[cyclonebuster]

I am pretty sure I read somewhere the Solar Wind is composed of 95% of the H+ ion.

We correlate solar wind and interplanetary magnetic field (IMF) properties with the properties of O+ and H+ during early 1996 (solar minimum) at altitudes between 5.5 and 8.9 RE geocentric using the Thermal Ion Dynamics Experiment (TIDE) on the Polar satellite. Throughout the high-altitude polar cap we observe H+ to be more abundant than O+. O+ is found to be more abundant at lower latitudes when the solar wind speed is low (and Kp is low), while at higher solar wind speeds (and high Kp), O+ is observed across most of the polar cap. The O+ density and parallel flux are well organized by solar wind dynamic pressure, both increasing with solar wind dynamic pressure. Both the O+ density and parallel flux have positive correlations with both VswBIMF and Esw. No correlation is found between O+ density and IMF Bz, although a nonlinear relationship with IMF By is observed, possibly due to a strong linear correlation with the dynamic pressure. H+ is not as highly correlated with solar wind and IMF parameters, although H+ density and parallel flux are negatively correlated with IMF By and positively correlated with both VswBIMF and Esw. In this solar minimum data set, H+ is dominant, so that contributions of this plasma to the plasma sheet would have very low O+ to H+ ratios. © 2001 American Geophysical Union

Solar wind influence on the oxygen content of ion outflow in the high-altitude polar cap during solar minimum conditions

[freeztar]

Thanks for the link cyclone, but that does not prove that H+/H2 comes to Earth from solar wind.

The TIDE/PSI investigation is designed to obtain mass-resolved observations of the velocity distribution of low energy or core plasmas of the magnetosphere, especially the polar regions. This includes the partial pressure, wind velocity and temperature of the principal ion species whose source lies in the terrestrial atmosphere and ionosphere, i.e. Hydrogen, Helium, Nitrogen, Oxygen, and molecules of these species and their compounds.

(TIDE/PSI)

[CharlieO]

FREEZTAR: Thank you, thank you for the Cal Tech link.

From the beginning of my interest in hydrogen as being an active element in Earth's formation, evolution and current controller of our atmosphere, I believed the loss of hydrogen into space was a key piece of evidence as to the existence of a hydrogen reservoir within Earth, perhaps the core.

That hydrogen is being lost into space is a proven fact and has been for decades. Other planetary bodies have been observed to be losing hydrogen from their atmospheres over the last century, albeit some observations were less scientifically determined than others. Unless scientific egos get over involved, Earth should be considered to be no different from the others.

My prior experience in researching hydrogen effusion from within materials and the obvious venting of hydrogen from organic and volcanic sources, led me to believe hydrogen had to be going somewhere as it is not found in any useful quantity in our surface atmospheric layers. When photos were taken from space in the 1960s, these clearly showed hydrogen gas escaping from Earth's stratosphere and trailing off into space, much like that suggested by earlier researchers. At least I was convinced this was proof of a hydrogen core.

However, when I was compiling a 1970 term paper on Earth in regard to having a hydrogen core, my attempts to find studies as to the actual amount of hydrogen escaping from Earth were frustrated by the wide variation in estimates from NASA, USAF and other scientific organizations. At best, I was convinced the amount was significant, if not "vast."

Recent appeals for any recent research into the actual amount of hydrogen escaping from Earth resulted in your goodself advising me of a thesis written in 1969, at Cal Tech, on The Photodissociation of Water Vapor, Evolution of Oxygen and Escape of Hydrogen in the Earth's Atmosphere, by Robert Terry Brinkmann; 169 pages, hand typed, double spaced. Seemed to be exactly what I needed in 1970.

What is frustrating is I previously contacted the Cal Tech School of Physics as well as Geology, among others, and was informed by all that no such information existed, nor was any related research planned. I tried again in 2007 and was told much the same, including by an eminent Cal Tech professor. Apparently, interest in the hydrogen loss from Earth into space is not a high priority in scientific circles. I am still amazed you were able to find the unpublished thesis for me.

Brinkmann wrote in his abstract: "Previous theoretical studies - - contained several objectionable features, which cast serious doubt on the validity of the results." He may have stepped on a few toes with that one. Boy, I can identify from my experiences a few years later.

He added such phrases as "Not been properly handled" and "Calculations have been based on incorrect assumption." In regard to three independent Monte Carlo calculations, he writes "1) There are potentially serious errors or unjustified simplifications inherent in all studies and 2) the results from the three studies are so discordant that even a qualitative idea of validity of the Jeans escape rate cannot be obtained." No shrinking violet he.

He ended with "No firm picture can be sketched of the condition of earth's early atmosphere from these considerations. Thus the nature of the evolution of the earth's atmosphere is less well known today than understood."

In the body of his thesis, he divided Earth's atmosphere into 12 layers and used all the research and information known at that time (1969) to quantify the elements within. He included NASA and USAF space exploration measurements as well as evidence from studies in Paleontology and fossil records. Then, he reviewed these results and utilized a considerable number of calculations and graphs to narrow the results into a tentative conclusion: Water vapor and oxygen within Earth's atmosphere were initially the result of "early outgassing of vast quantities of hydrogen - - over a billion years." I agree.

He estimated the current rate of hydrogen atoms escaping into space as "1.6 x 10+9, Cm-2, Sec-1." This amount, continuing daily over billions of years and perhaps at a much greater rate in earlier times, should be some evidence of the existence of an active and effusing hydrogen reservoir with Earth. Therefore, if true, Earth has been evaporating over time; just like other similar galactic bodies.

Brinkmann did mention briefly the origin of water vapor as being largely volcanic venting, but did not go into detail. It appeared sufficient for him to restrict his efforts to trying to quantify the amount of hydrogen escaping into space and not its relationship to a source; which I believe is an active reservoir of hydrogen within Earth, making a cold core of hydrogen most likely and a hot iron core illogical, if not impossible.

Attempts to locate the Robert Terry Brinkmann who compiled the Cal Tech thesis have been unsuccessful to date. I did locate a Dr. Robert Brinkmann, Department of Geography, University of South Florida, but he apparently obtained his doctorate decades later and from another university; according to his profile. Still waiting on a personal response in hope he may know the original Brinkmann.

Still looking for a more recent and more accurate measurement of the total amount of hydrogen escaping into space, yet very encouraged at to the quantity estimated in 1969by Robert Brinkmann. Any significant loss which can be proven is support for my belief in the existence of an active reservoir of hydrogen within Earth.

Appreciate the effort to include hydrogen arriving with solar winds, but can't find any useful information as to the physical amounts of hydrogen arriving on Earth, if any could penetrate our Van Allen belts, which would in any way approach the amount of hydrogen escaping into space. This begs the logical question, why would hydrogen be arriving on solar winds, penetrating our atmosphere, if it were possible, then turning around and escaping into space?

Regards, Charlie

Charles Odendhal, 24165 County Road 90, Ault, CO 80610 USA, 970.834.1286