Do a spiral galaxy and a hurricane share a similar formation mechanism?

[peter]

Hi; Guys,
Today I saw two totally unrelated pictures: one is a spiral galaxy and the other is a hurricane; they are so similar (see the attached pictures below)which make me think that they should share (to some extent) similar mechanism of formation. I am not a cosmologist nor a Meteorologist. I know that the formation of a hurricane involves completely fluid mechanism, how about a spiral galaxy? Is it possible that the cosmological fluid or other fluid-like matter is involved the formation of the spiral galaxies? They both rotate and have an eye in the center and spiral arms. Just for curiosity, could be silly.

[LaurieAG]

Originally Posted by peter

Hi; Guys,
Today I saw two totally unrelated pictures: one is a spiral galaxy and the other is a hurricane; they are so similar (see the attached pictures below)which make me think that they should share (to some extent) similar mechanism of formation. I am not a cosmologist nor a Meteorologist. I know that the formation of a hurricane involves completely fluid mechanism, how about a spiral galaxy? Is it possible that the cosmological fluid or other fluid-like matter is involved the formation of the spiral galaxies? They both rotate and have an eye in the center and spiral arms. Just for curiosity, could be silly.

Hi Peter,

There are other alternatives, like the light paths from bodies orbiting a common center, possibly just as silly.

[peter]

Originally Posted by LaurieAG

Hi Peter,

There are other alternatives, like the light paths from bodies orbiting a common center, possibly just as silly.

Hi; LaurieAG,
It is an amazing phenomenon. I guess that the spiral pattern generated by such mechanism will change with time because of the constant motion of those bodies. I think that most of spiral galaxies detected are real Milky Way-like or hurricane-like.

[Jay-qu]

Sorry peter but no, these are completely unrelated.

A galaxy does rotate but it is not this rotation that causes the spiral arms to form. If it where we would run into trouble, known as the winding problem. And that is that the galaxies spiral arms would eventually wind up very tightly around the nucleus. While some spiral galaxies have tighter wound arms than others, none are observed to the extent that would be expected for very old spirals.

The current theory for the formation of the spiral arms is due to pressure waves. If you look at the picture you supplied us with you will notice that along the arms arm mainly blue stars. These stars are hot and young, meaning they were created most recently. It also implies they were all formed around the same time. When these stars get old and eventually die, some will go supernova. This supernova will cause pressure waves in the interstellar medium that will make the gasses in between the arms contract. This contaction will set off another wave of star formation and the spiral shape will be perpetuated.

[LaurieAG]

Originally Posted by peter

Hi; LaurieAG,
It is an amazing phenomenon. I guess that the spiral pattern generated by such mechanism will change with time because of the constant motion of those bodies. I think that most of spiral galaxies detected are real Milky Way-like or hurricane-like.

Hi peter,

This is not like a hurricane, These spiral light paths (aren't a mainstream concept but) just a simple reverse projection from the relative originating positions of a rotating point source of light (and their relative paths) that would appear just like a spiral galaxy if they were consolidated (or the point sources were rotating around each other much faster than they would around their galactic center) into one image.

And there's still the impact of Beryllium on what we see through our telescopes. The beryllium that's used for doping optics, or the FTL Beryllium doped prisms, or the photon transistor that uses a carbon fibre to allow photons to hit, you guessed it, a Beryllium atom.

Beryllium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that 7Be and 8Be are unstable has profound cosmological consequences as it means that elements heavier than beryllium could not be produced by nuclear fusion in the Big Bang. However, Fred Hoyle showed that the energy levels of 8Be and 12C favour carbon production by the triple-alpha process in helium burning stars, thus making life possible. (See also Big Bang nucleosynthesis).

7Be decays by electron capture, therefore its decay rate is dependent upon its electron configuration - a novel occurrence in nuclear decay[9].

If there was enough Beryllium produced by the BB (if there ever was a BB) to dope the early universe, hmmmmm, who'd be the dopes?

[Thunderbird]

Many of nature’s patterns are related to the golden section and the Fibonacci numbers. For instance, the golden spiral is a logarithmic or equiangular spiral – a type of spiral found in sunflowers, seashells, animal horns and tusks, beaks and claws, whirlpools, hurricanes, and spiral galaxies. An equiangular spiral does not alter its shape as its size increases. Because of this remarkable property (known as self-similarity).


There are similarities, but the physics are different. Hurricanes are structures in the gravitational field of the Earth, while galaxies are gravitating objects in space
Which makes the Golden Ratio's presence all the more remarkable.


The Golden Ratio or logarithmic spiral is a key shape for things that grows, because with growth the ratio does not change. But no one knows why the logarithmic spirals appear in totally unrelated phenomena.

Our own solar system possesses some interesting Golden Mean properties.
The distances of planetary orbits working out from the Sun displays a Golden Mean proportion. The distance from the sun to Mercury plus Mercury's distance to Venus equals the distance between Venus and Earth. The Phi relationship is most clearly defined by the planets nearest the sun. Clearly there is some kind of mathematical relation between all objects in gravitational fields, whether it be hurricanes, galaxies, or even the spiraling of water around a bath tub drain.

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

...The Golden Ratio or logarithmic spiral is a key shape for things that grows, because with growth the ratio does not change. But no one knows why the logarithmic spirals appear in totally unrelated phenomena.....

Well, actually, [cough!] we DO know why logarithmic spirals seem to pop up everywhere.

You are not surprised to see straight lines or circles everywhere, are you? They are such basic, primitive shapes. And soooooo many phenomena have the straight line or the circle as their "solution" or manifestation. But that doesn't mean the phenomena have something in common.

A meteorite makes a straight line in the sky. A tautly held string makes a straight line. The horizon at sea appears to be a straight line. It also appears as a circle around your head. These phenomona have nothing in common--they just all happen to manifest as a basic, primitive shape.

Well, what about the logarithmic spiral? Is it a basic, primitive shape? Yes it is. I know, the math appears more exotic and logarithms don't seem very basic, but in the world of mathematics, the constant e, and its related logarithms and exponentials, are just as primitive and simple as pi, or a straight line. There are many phenomina in the universe that have the logarithmic spiral as their "solution" or manifestation--even though they have nothing else in common.

[Thunderbird]

When we observe structures based on identical mathematic principals. and these structures all being dynamical self organizing systems, it’s safe to assume that there are some underlying basic principles at work linking these
structures.


Geometric evidence defines Phi as the optimum oscillating operator that mediates between ordered, equilibrium systems and disordered, non-equilibrium ones.

Have you got a cold?

[Symbology]

Of course we know! It's called "Magic"


PS Nice write up Thunderbird

Here are some examples of e that Pyro was talking about:

Sunflower seeds:


Sunflower seed overlapping spiral pattern using a Fibonacci sequence (e)


Sunflower Leaf pattern:


Nautilus logarithmic growth:


Nautilus cross section up close:

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

When we observe structures based on identical mathematic principals. and these structures all being dynamical self organizing systems, it’s safe to assume that there are some underlying basic principles at work linking this structures....

You may assume.

But it is never safe.