Origin of the Universe,,,,Bang or no Bang

[Pluto]

G'day coldcreation.

I sometimes feel that I'm alone in trying to understand, what the hell is going on out there.

Yes I have read the links you posted. Thank you for making me read them again.

These papers are quite interesting.

[physics/0107027] Induced Gravity in the Short Range
Induced Gravity in the Short Range

Authors: C.P.Kouropoulos
(Submitted on 13 Jul 2001 (v1), last revised 9 Aug 2001 (this version, v2))

[quote]Abstract: We consider a pair of harmonic oscillators in two or three dimensions of space coupled by the standard electrodynamic forces : the Coulomb, the Lorentz and the electrokinetic forces. The addition of the Lorentz force is mainly felt in the short range and suppresses the radial correlated oscillating mode of such coupled oscillators. This imposes constraints on the system that make the two transverse modes degenerate. As a result, an 1/r antigravitational interaction now appears in the surviving anticorrelated radial zero-mode, which does not allow coherent states to form. As gravitation can only emerge from coherent modes, it can no longer be transitive. Matter in high densities would thus tend to increase its disorder, decouple from its own gravity, from the ordering far infrared Machian background that coheres its rest energy and would become intrinsically unstable. The highly energetic jets from galactic nuclei could be the consequence.[/QUOTE]


and

[0708.2263] The SN 1987A Link to Others and Gamma-Ray Bursts
The SN 1987A Link to Others and Gamma-Ray Bursts

Authors: John Middleditch
(Submitted on 16 Aug 2007 (v1), last revised 6 Feb 2008 (this version, v8))

Abstract: Early measurements of SN 1987A can be interpreted in light of a beam/jet (BJ), with a collimation factor >10,000, which impacted polar ejecta (PE) to produce the "Mystery Spot" (MS), ~24 lt-d away. Other details of SN 1987A suggest that it came from a merger of 2 stellar cores of a common envelope (CE) binary, i.e. a "double degenerate" (DD) SN. Even having to penetrate the CE, the BJ may have caused a long-soft (l)GRB upon hitting the PE, thus DD can produce lGRBs. Because DD must be the dominant merger/SN mechanism in elliptical galaxies (EGs), where only short, hard GRBs (sGRBs) have been observed, DD without CE or PE must also produce sGRBs, and thus NS-NS mergers may not make GRBs as we know them, and/or be as common as previously thought. Millisecond pulsars (MSPs) in the non-core-collapsed globular clusters are also 99% DD-formed from WD-WD merger, consistent with their 2.10 ms minimum spin period, the 2.14 ms signal seen from SN 1987A, and sGRBs offset from the centers of EGs. The details of Ia's suggest that these are also DD, and the total thermonuclear disruption paradigm is now in serious doubt as well, a cause for concern in Ia Cosmology, because Ia's will appear to be Ic's when viewed from their DD merger poles, given sufficient matter above that lost to core-collapse. As a DD SN, 1987A appears to be the Rosetta Stone for 99% of SNe, GRBs and MSPs, including all recent nearby SNe except SN 1986J, and the more distant SN 2006gy. There is no need to invent exotica, such as "collapsars," to account for GRBs.

and

[0811.0874] Solitons and vortices in an evolving Bose-Einstein condensate
Solitons and vortices in an evolving Bose-Einstein condensate

Authors: Shi-Jie Yang, Quan-Sheng Wu, Shiping Feng, Yu-Chuan Wen, Yue Yu
(Submitted on 6 Nov 2008)

Abstract: Spatiotemporal evolution of a confined Bose-Einstein condensate is studied by numerically integrating the time-dependent Gross-Pitaevskii equation. Self-interference between the successively expanding and reflecting nonlinear matter waves results in spiral atomic density profile, which subsequently degenerates into an embedding structure: The inner part preserves memory of the initial states while the outer part forms a sequence of necklacelike rings. The phase plot reveals a series of discrete concentric belts. The large gradients between adjacent belts indicate that the ring density notches are dark solitons. In the dynamical process, a scenario of vortex-antivortex pairs are spontaneously created and annihilated, whereas the total vorticity keeps invariant.

The depth of this subject is extremely interesting.

The more I read I find that the so called main stream thinkers have been left out in the cold as in the dark ages. Than again: Whats a main stream thinker?. Is there any out there?


Coldcreation said

There are many other links similar to the above, some of which may already have been posted by Pluto.

So it appears possible that Pluto may be correct, or, at least, he has not yet been proven wrong.

In fact, evidence seems to support what he is citing. Whether the ejected material is degenerate (Edit: see [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_matter]Degenerate Matter[/url) or not I do not know. I too have more research to do.

As far as wether material is expelled from inside or outside of an event horizon has little relevance, since the process of ejection (if indeed that is what's taking place) is still operational from within a vicinity where gravitational spacetime curvature is exceedingly pronounced.

Edit: As long as the ejected material observed is outside the Schwarzschild radius of a black hole there is no reason why the material could not be degenerate. No degeneracy state can occur within the event horizon (I think Pluto would agree).

Thank you for the support, but! credit goes to the scientists who research the darn things.

Tell me why you think that no degeneracy state occurs within the so called event horizon. Is there a sign that says keep out?

As for event horizon, I see compact matter forming trapping horizons.

The vector forces during the infalling direction prevents any EMR from escaping.

The matter is already degenerate and the final form of degeneracy compaction is the issue that maybe the LHC can resolve.

The degenerate matter within the compact core BH creates an unstable environment created by the electromagnetic wave collision. In actual fact the instability creates a stable vortex that not only ejects matter out but keeps it in an electromagnetic field vortex that can remain stable from the kick off point to millions of light years altering the form of the galaxy and near by galaxies, ie a cluster ajuster reforming galaxies.


One of the topics that I'm reading is on Degenerate matter and jet formation. Darn reading never stops.

[modest]

Originally Posted by coldcreation

Check this out: How Black Holes Both Consume and Eject Material

Your link says:

Matter that gets close to a black hole but remains outside the event horizon can undergo a very different experience and is sometimes expelled in violent jets. Such jets, probably originating from an energetic, magnetized, spinning disk around the supermassive black hole, produced the enormous cavities seen in MS 0735

which is inconsistent with Pluton's claim that matter escapes from inside the center of black holes.

Likewise, the link:

Originally Posted by coldcreation

Or this one: Black holes give as well as take

says,

Theorists have predicted that light emitted by quasars should act as a kind of wind, blowing gas from the accretion disc that surrounds a quasar’s black hole into intergalactic space.

Again, not from inside the horizon. It's also notable that this link was written in 2003 and we've learned a lot about QSOs since then.

Your final link:

Originally Posted by coldcreation

And this one: Black Hole recycles to form fresh stars and planets

Is no doubt an honest mistake as you weren't (or this online journal wasn't) checking out the source. The "Doctor" referenced in the article (I won't use his name because I don't want him following a google search here) has invented an alternative cosmology including 21 types of black holes that he hopes will prove god is the primeval spirit existing in the center of the atmosphere of the universe. He's written no peer reviewed articles,

This theory explains how the Primeval Particle or Primeval Spirit or 'The Creator' became active at the center of Space scientifically and expanded in the eternal space and created uncounted universes, and thereafter inculcated life and energy throughout the eternal space with His genius intelligence. The explanation is complicated. However...

source

Pluto's claims that matter *must* eject from inside a black holes are unsupported and his condescending posts toward anyone who disagrees with him are very rude.

~modest

[Pluto]

G'day from the land of ozzz

Modest said

Pluto's claims that matter *must* eject from inside a black holes are unsupported and his condescending posts toward anyone who disagrees with him are very rude.

Excuse me, where is the rude part?

What I see is a moderator who wants his claim to overide another.

You say, that my ideas are unsupported. It looks like you have not read the links that I have posted. Not only that, my posting has been in depth.

If you wish to lock me out of this forum, than so be it, but for what ever reason?

I have locked myself out for 2 weeks.

[coldcreation]

Originally Posted by modest

Your final link:

Is no doubt an honest mistake as you weren't (or this online journal wasn't) checking out the source. ...

Damm, that's some weird sh_t.

I will delete that link right now. Thanks for checking the source modest.

More soon...


CC

[maddog]

Originally Posted by Pluto

Mate, this is where I think that you nead to read up on the subject. What makes you think that I want to misslead any of the information.

Well I have read more than half the 54 papers you listed already (at least perused them). NONE of those Papers, I REPEAT, NONE mentioned / implied that Matter, {Real Matter} could come from Inside a Black Hole to Outside. NONE!!!
So this implies to me you gather some papers that sound good, don't read them and then make Conclusion regardless!!! <-- Modest has already stated this above to you. The Jets you mention are an outside process. Your 54 papers say so.
The Main Driving mechanism is the Blandford-Znajek Mechanism.

Just read the papers with that in the title before you jabber on again this subject. Not doing so just shows your blatant ignorance.

You mislead by being completely ignorant about the Laws of physics. I don't think intentionally, just stupidly !

I guess from on, I Must be very blunt with you, no other way matters.

Originally Posted by Pluto

There are various theories as to the workings of jets. Most scientists allow the door to remain open in fear of being wrong.

This is ONLY true when no physical laws support said statements {like yours}.

Originally Posted by Pluto

As for Black holes and their properties, we lack information to actually determine the correct mechanisms, so we talk around the topic, trying to fit the puzzel together.

Only one "talking around" the subject here is YOU!!!

Originally Posted by Pluto

Than make yourself aware.

This was a REALLY Nice way of saying there NO F***in' Way (NFW) ... get it !!!
of matter being eject out from INSIDE a Black Hole NFW...

Originally Posted by Pluto

We have such a long way to go before we can say we understand the formation of compact objects and the jet formation.

Your claim, not supported by your papers. What appears though is maybe going are multiple processes in ejection (ALL are Outside Processes -- OUTSIDE!!!).

Originally Posted by Pluto

My opinion at this moment is not important.

Another statement of truism by you, again, a rarity.

Originally Posted by Pluto

I do not invent the information and the papers are not isolated. Ask me what part and papers that you want to read. Properties of jets are well documented. I do not have to feed that information.

You INVENT You CONCLUSION !!! WHICH IS WRONG !!!

This presumption on your part that you understand and then state a Bunch of CRAP!!
-- as though it is True!!! This is why people are taking you as being RUDE! I am beginning to take you Condescending attitude as being that way myself!!


maddog

[modest]

Originally Posted by coldcreation

Damm, that's some weird sh_t.

I will delete that link right now. Thanks for checking the source modest.

More soon...


CC

No problem—like I said, an honest mistake, and I think the Journal made the mistake, not you.

Originally Posted by maddog

You mislead by being completely ignorant about the Laws of physics. I don't think intentionally, just stupidly !

I know it can be frustrating, Maddog. But, as a moderator, I need to say that attacking other members is against the rules. You've done a great job of reviewing the scientific literature and making a reasoned argument and I really hope you continue to do so.

If you see a case where Pluto is making unsupported claims or failing to follow one of the other rules, then report the post and the other moderators and myself will work on the problem behind the scenes

~modest

[maddog]

Originally Posted by coldcreation

There are many other links similar to the above, some of which may already have been posted by Pluto.

So it appears possible that Pluto may be correct, or, at least, he has not yet been proven wrong.

In fact, evidence seems to support what he is citing. Whether the ejected material is degenerate or not I do not know. I too have more research to do.

As far as wether material is expelled from inside or outside of an event horizon has little relevance, since the process of ejection (if indeed that is what's taking place) is still operational from within a vicinity where gravitational spacetime curvature is exceedingly pronounced.

Edit: As long as the ejected material observed is outside the Schwarzschild radius of a black hole there is no reason why the material could not be degenerate. No degeneracy state can occur within the event horizon (I think Pluto would agree).

Cold Creation,

I take exception with the statement Pluto made. Basically [paraphrased] matter from within a Black Hole is the source of material for the jets. Categorically Impossible.

To do so would requiring exceeding speed light (c) -- thus violates SR. Isn't gonna' happen. So the Inside/Outside question has great relevance. Were Pluto to have actually read his 54 papers, he (or anyone) would see the process of creating jets near Black Holes is an OUTSIDE Phenomenon !

The papers listed refer to a Blandford-Znajek Mechanism for generating the jets.

It is with that Pluto makes the crass comment, that I haven't read the material. Excuse me if that gets my ire up.

Since I first started studying Black Holes back in 1971, I learned that the Event Horizon is an impenetrable barrier. Even light cannot escape a Black Hole's Event Horizon, then
how could something which is bound by it ??

maddog

[maddog]

Originally Posted by Pluto

Excuse me, where is the rude part?

The rude part is telling me to the material, after I am showing you with the body of those 54 papers is the basis for my refutation of your statement "Jet material come from within the Black Hole itself" [paraphrase]. That is DAMN RUDE !!!!!

Originally Posted by Pluto

What I see is a moderator who wants his claim to overide another. You say, that my ideas are unsupported. It looks like you have not read the links that I have posted. Not only that, my posting has been in depth.

You are unwilling or incapable of acknowledging the error you have made.

You say you have "locked yourself out for 2 weeks" ... ???

Well if you do come back, please describe me one thing ---

That is THE Reference to the evidence where you CLAIM that

Jet's material comes from within (that is inside) a Black Hole (this is of any size).
I require the SPECIFIC Reference (paper citation, page #). I am no longer willing to trash this website by allowing you to make unfounded claims. I rebut the statement.





maddog

[maddog]

Originally Posted by Pluto

Lets take the example of matter that is pulled into a compact object. Matter undergoes several phase changes, as we see in the formation of Neutron stars and the next phase or phases where neutron matter is broken down to quarkes and so on. These transients have been reorded to form jets via electromagnetic waves colliding and releasing huge amounts of matter. Most jets that form away from the core are quite unstable. The main jet that originates from the combination of the core and the accretion disc is the most stable that can remain in the same position for millions of years. This is one form of evidence that suggests that the main jet originates from the core or a combination with the disc. The other evidence is the degenerate matter that is ejected from the BH and the electromagnetic fields that form a stable evironment for the ejected matter to go deep into space affecting star formation and to the extent of influencing the form of galaxy clusters.

So what we have is matter going in and matter coming out as degenerate matter that reforms into normal matter. This is a simple cyclic process.

This process is well documented, its not my idea.

You comments which I highlighted are the misstatements orERROR in the argument [were these an argument at all].

These are completely in error. Error because they imply matter (with mass) can be ejected out of a Black Hole. Totally fallacious.

The matter comes from outside via the Blandford-Znajek Mechanism described within the body of the 54 papers you cited. Look it up.

maddog

[maddog]

Originally Posted by modest

I know it can be frustrating, Maddog. But, as a moderator, I need to say that attacking other members is against the rules. You've done a great job of reviewing the scientific literature and making a reasoned argument and I really hope you continue to do so.

If you see a case where Pluto is making unsupported claims or failing to follow one of the other rules, then report the post and the other moderators and myself will work on the problem behind the scenes

I went back an reread my posts and I feel I am innocent of any violation of the rules of Hypography.

I have not spoken foully. I brought back my the statement you quoted. If you read it, I am only describing the misleading methodology in which Pluto is speaking so as to mislead / cajole / misrepresent the topic.

I have no problem with Pluto desiring to understand how jets form near Black Holes. I
do have a problem when someone attempts create the environment of some falsehood as being bonafide, truthful and valid. I have a problem with that. My previous post went back and captured "exactly what Pluto said" which was just sloughed off.

Now implying that Black Holes eject matter is an asinine comment. It is not true. Violates SR among other things.

I have gone back and reread a lot of his posts. I see where he definitely doesn't think things through.

Yet like Einstein said, "to do something over and over again, expecting the different results is insane!"

This in ignoring where I have shone that Pluto's statement does that is quite what Einstein is saying.

I am not going as far as to say what Forest Gump said though. If I do, let me know.

I am completely with you in stating that Pluto needs to state his case and Show how his statements are valid. This he has not done.

I would be fine if he just qualified it even as just being a conjecture or an opinion on his part.

maddog