[modest]

Originally Posted by Boerseun

But when it comes to problem solving, I think apes outclass dogs by a few orders of magnitude. I have unfortunately not read your link yet, but from personal experience, having lived in Africa with monkeys and apes quite regularly trashing our homes in search of food, I can tell you that even the most elaborate monkey deterrent is quickly and cleverly circumvented by monkeys, when the payoff is a handsome bunch of fruit.

I agree, and I think problem-solving is a much better indicator of intelligence than reading and responding to human cues.

I wonder if cats are on the same evolutionary trend - and if it will happen as fast. In a few thousand years will a person be able to give a cat a dirty look and have the cat understand it's in trouble? Then what animal will we select this trait in next... Foxes maybe? I wouldn't mind having a domesticated fox.

Originally Posted by Boerseun

Unfortunately, there are so many yard-sticks for intelligence, subjective all, that reaching a satisfying conclusion in this discussion will be hard. But it is very interesting, nonetheless.

Yep. One milestone of intelligence that I like is self-recognition in a mirror. I believe humans, great apes, and dolphins are the only animals that can do this. I'm not sure how a sense of self is related to intelligence, but it just intuitively seems like it should be. If you put a mark on a dogs face, it won't examine it in the mirror. Apes and dolphins will.

-modest

[HydrogenBond]

It is hard to compare intelligence using a single test or one could unknowingly stack the deck to get the result you want. It would have to be an intelligence decathlon using a wide variety of testing including tests that stack each deck but in a fair way.

One thing not mentioned about dogs is they can teach other animals, using reinforcement. This easiest to see are herding dogs. Another example, dogs can learn from humans, how to get their owners to cater to them. One might get the impression the dog learned from the human how to be the boss, if that is what the human requires of the dog. I have seen where a dog has a particular treat in mind. After reinforcement, the owner starts to learn. Dogs can adapt even if that adaptation requires catering to human neurosis. This means they can not only learn cause and affect but also irrational commands that ebb and flow. After all that they are still happy to see the owner. They teach humans unconditional love, loyalty, which are complex abstractions.

[Boerseun]

Originally Posted by HydrogenBond

They teach humans unconditional love, loyalty, which are complex abstractions.

I don't quite think so. They might be merely "sucking up" to the Alpha Dog, in this case, you. And you might interpret it as all the complex emotions described above. That's why I'm of the opinion that we humans might attribute way too much intelligence to canines, merely because their actions looks familiar in the human sense, but their motivations are rarely considered.

[Not half, but whole!]

One must remember that canine are probably the first domesticated animal. There have been many generations of dogs that were working for their human/protohuman. They got rewards, ie food and shelter, if they did their job well. Very early on this genetically predisposed those that were good on reading human gesture, language, etc. The dog had to pay attention to man to get its rewards. Those that were good at it were kept and those that weren't were probably eaten. Evolution at work. This is why the respond to human cues so well. The main problem with a dog "not listening" is that it is probably paying attention to other cues that you may be providing.

Apes were never domesticated. The did not depend on a human for sustenance. There was no evolutionary pressure to develop human interpretive skills.