[nutronjon]

Okay, we must work with both chemistry and biology to get a tangible grip on what is life. May be with a focus on tangible reality, this thread will be managable?

I believe I killed many seeds, by trying to rush sprouting. I soaked them in water and then let them dry out, because I decided the seeds where too small to sprout that way. Now they are planted in soil and won't sprout. Conclusion I killed them, and this must have something to do hydrogen. Right?

Some of my soil is very woody, and this depletes nitrogen, which is need for growing plants. Right? What is happening here? Why would wood deplete nitrogen and why must plants have it?

Next question, why is it so easy to kill the plants we want, and so hard to get rid of the plants we don't want? Seriously- may be understanding this, will improve my ability to get desired results.

I am restricting this to plant life, to keep it comprehensive. After I get a grasp on what is happening with plant life, then I want to tackle animal life. You all have taught me a lot and really appreciate you.

[UncleAl]

Promoting seed germination:

1) Heavy or impermeable seed coat: Give it a little rub (scarification) on fine sand paper or an emery board. Do it away from the growing nib.
2) When you soak a seed on a folded paper towel, does discoloration spread? Could be growth inhibitor (dryland plants) - soak overnight in a change or three of warm water before planting.
3) It won't sprout for weeks after planting? Give the soil one light spray of cheap vodka. A tiny bit of ethanol exposure promotes sprouting.
4) Here's the big one! Get a dry popsicle stick, light it and let it burn a bit to form some coals, blow out, then immediately put the dry seed in the smoke. Plant. Trace amounts of NOx are powerful germination promoters.

[Mr.bluebottle]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

Okay, we must work with both chemistry and biology to get a tangible grip on what is life. May be with a focus on tangible reality, this thread will be managable?

I believe I killed many seeds, by trying to rush sprouting. I soaked them in water and then let them dry out, because I decided the seeds where too small to sprout that way. Now they are planted in soil and won't sprout. Conclusion I killed them, and this must have something to do hydrogen. Right?

"What seeds are we talking about? How have those seeds been conditioned to germinate in nature. Ie. native prairy grass seeds wait for the heat from the grass fires to germinate. I do not think hydrogen or nitrogen deficiencies will stop a seed from germinating but instead will affect the plant as it grows."

Some of my soil is very woody, and this depletes nitrogen, which is need for growing plants. Right? What is happening here? Why would wood deplete nitrogen and why must plants have it?
"Lots of things in the soil deplete nitrogen - But i don't think wood or woody material will."


Next question, why is it so easy to kill the plants we want, and so hard to get rid of the plants we don't want? Seriously- may be understanding this, will improve my ability to get desired results.

"If an apple tree is left on its own, it will produce lower and lower quality apples each season. probably fewer apples as well.- the plant quality will migrate to a downward level.
It takes an outside stimulus to trim the branches, removing suckers and misplaced branches to keep the plant on a sustained quality level. This trimming produces a stronger plant and better apples by raising the plant quality level. The plants you want are already raised to a high level and so it takes extra effort to maintain them at that high level. Where as the plants you don't want are at a basic low level and so very little will bother them making it hard to get rid of them."

I am restricting this to plant life, to keep it comprehensive. After I get a grasp on what is happening with plant life, then I want to tackle animal life. You all have taught me a lot and really appreciate you.

Hmm No multi quote. I put my response in italics.
ehh I quess all quotes are in italics I put my response in bold italics

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by Mr.bluebottle

Hmm No multi quote. I put my response in italics.

To add multiple quotes to a post, just select the text you want to quote and hit the icon that looks like a caption. Alternatively you can just type it out. To see how, quote this post and look at how it is formatted.

ehh I quess all quotes are in italics I put my response in bold italics

You can also use different color if you want by selecting your text and clicking on the "A" icon. Welcome to Hypography btw.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

I believe I killed many seeds, by trying to rush sprouting. I soaked them in water and then let them dry out, because I decided the seeds where too small to sprout that way. Now they are planted in soil and won't sprout. Conclusion I killed them, and this must have something to do hydrogen. Right?

Why do you suspect Hydrogen?
I would guess that they died when you dried them out. What kind of seeds are you trying to sprout?

Some of my soil is very woody, and this depletes nitrogen, which is need for growing plants. Right? What is happening here? Why would wood deplete nitrogen and why must plants have it?

Live plants deplete soil nitrogen (except for nitrogen-fixing plants such as legumes, vetch, etc.). Wood chunks in the soil actually add nitrogen to the soil as they are processed by fungus and bacteria.

Next question, why is it so easy to kill the plants we want, and so hard to get rid of the plants we don't want? Seriously- may be understanding this, will improve my ability to get desired results.

It depends.
Define what you mean by "plants we want". If you mean food crops, then it's difficult to keep them healthy because other critters want them as well. In other words, if it is a plant we want, there's a good chance something else wants it as well. What are you having difficulty growing?

I am restricting this to plant life, to keep it comprehensive. After I get a grasp on what is happening with plant life, then I want to tackle animal life. You all have taught me a lot and really appreciate you.

As a primer to plant chemistry, I would recommend reading about Photosynthesis.

[nutronjon]

Thanks everyone. It is the end of the day, and my energy is too low to think through everything, but I am feeling more hopeful about encourage life out of my seeds.

UncleAl is beer as good as vodka? I like putting the slugs to sleep in vodka, but my god, do slugs pickling in beer stink! I have a jar full of slugs soaking in beer. Question- will they make good fertilizer, or could eggs survive and infect my soil? I picked at least 8 slugs off one board today. The plots are divided by boards, and especially the big fat slugs are enjoying these wood homes. Back to the question, will a light spray of beer do the same as vodka to encourage plant growth, or were you kidding?

I am glad the woody stuff is okay, because the soil is a clay that really needs sand, so any roughage is helpful.

I have coffee gounds, but was told coffee grounds can take nitrogen out of the soil, and only be used in composting?

How about mulching with leaves, and then putting planting soil on top, and then planting? I physically can't rototile the ground, and need to suppress the grass that is growing in the clay soil, but don't want to ruin the soil with leaves, if that is the wrong thing to do.

I hope hydrogenbond shows up, because I am trying to understand his explanations of what hydrogen has to do with life. And really, why do plants want nitrogen? What is happening when a seed comes to life? What does it need to live?

Oh, heat was mentioned. Would it be a good idea to put my reluctant potted seeds under a heat lamp?

[maikeru]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

Okay, we must work with both chemistry and biology to get a tangible grip on what is life. May be with a focus on tangible reality, this thread will be managable?

I believe I killed many seeds, by trying to rush sprouting. I soaked them in water and then let them dry out, because I decided the seeds where too small to sprout that way. Now they are planted in soil and won't sprout. Conclusion I killed them, and this must have something to do hydrogen. Right?

No worries, hydrogen should have little to do with untimely seed death.

There are several ways to rush sprouting. UncleAl, as usual, gives awesome tips. I always learn a lot from his posts. Here are two tips I find useful:

1. Humidity chamber: A moist, warm chamber where you can sprout seeds. Bottom of container can have something like soil, fine gravel, charcoal, or sand to an absorbent material like cotton. Try to keep it clean or sterile. If it is too dirty or too hot, bacteria and fungi can grow and rot your seeds. Many humidity chambers also contain a container or cup of water in the center to provide adequate humidity. E.g., a red clay pot filled with water with gravel around it in the chamber works quite well. The chamber should have a lid or top on it, so that it does not dry out and makes for easy seedling removal or cleaning.

2. Light and heat. This depends on the type of seeds you're trying to sprout, but I find many plant seedlings like a bit of heat. If you can keep them incubated at around 20-30 C continually, you can get them to sprout in half the time they normally would...or possibly faster. The hotter it is, the faster they sprout. You can also place your humidity chamber or a cellophane-topped pot with the seeds in weak to moderate sunlight, provided the temperature doesn't reach like 35-40 C and fry the seeds. Many seedlings do not sprout quickly without light. Some require weak light and others like strong light. This is also influenced by how deep you bury seeds and what "soil" the seeds are sprouting in. If you have them in cotton or tissue paper, then they will receive quite a lot of light with little trouble.

Some of my soil is very woody, and this depletes nitrogen, which is need for growing plants. Right? What is happening here? Why would wood deplete nitrogen and why must plants have it?

Soil microbes like bacteria and fungi are trying to digest the cellulose and lignans in the wood buried in the soil. Wood is mostly composed of C, H, and O, and very little N as I recall. In order to digest the wood, the microbes have to produce enzymes and multiply exceedingly, which means they suck up any available nitrogen. It's a matter of food, reproduction, and survival for them. Plants also need nitrogen to produce amino acids and proteins, etc., so they find themselves competing with the soil microbes when there's something like wood, coffee grounds, or charcoal in the soil. Coffee grounds and charcoal, it seems, act like filters/sponges and suck up nutrients from the surrounding soil, which also can create a low-N situation. (This is remedied either when the coffee grounds decompose and their organic acids breakdown or are leeched or you "dope" the grounds and charcoal with more N from say a source like a chemical or organic fertilizer rich in N.)

Be aware that some plants require more N than others, and it also depends on what they are doing. Generally an abundance of nitrogen supports the growth of more leaves and stems. If you want them to produce flowers or fruits, I believe potassium is the key.

Next question, why is it so easy to kill the plants we want, and so hard to get rid of the plants we don't want? Seriously- may be understanding this, will improve my ability to get desired results.

I discovered much of the ease in gardening comes from making the soil better and healthier. Whether it is in a pot or out in the yard, healthier, nutrient-rich soil supports healthier and bigger plants. Healthier, bigger plants also crowd out and compete against weeds more effectively, because weeds are often adapted to growing well in poor soils. Feed the soil and your plants will take care of themselves quite well, against bugs, bad weather, or excessive harvesting and cutting. Let me put in a plug for terra preta here.

Try to take care of soil microbes and soil animals like beetles, soil mites, earthworms, etc. Feed them with things like compost, leaf litter, etc. These critters help to digest refuse and create soil organic matter (e.g., worm castings). And they help to provide aeration for soil microbes that might be involved in nitrogen fixing or decomposition. In the presence of oxygen, things decompose more quickly. Without enough oxygen or air circulating in the soil, aerobes and plant roots suffer and can die or rot. With aeration, you'll be surprised how much better plants do. Extra aeration can be provided with more humus/organic matter in the soil, which causes clumping of the soil into soft aggregates, charcoal chunks, bark, mulch, gravel, etc. Softer, workable soil also allows you to pull out weeds and unwanted plants with ease.

[HydrogenBond]

Uncle's advice was excellent with a few new one's added to my knowledge base. One strategy is to use a good sterile seed starting mix. This soil is optimized in pH and nutrients concentrations, to give the seeds the best chance of getting going. Plant them to the depth it says on the package, which is usually a seeds diameter or two, deep. Then transplant them after a few sets of leaves. This could be 4-6 weeks. If you want to use the paper towel to get them started, use tap water instead of bottled water. The tap water contains some chlorine to help sterilize the paper towel. If you wish even more precaution wash your hands to assure there is nothing on your fingers when handling them. Another trick to help stubborn seeds germinate, is to place the seeds-media in the refrigerator for a day or so, then take them out permanently to warm up. Some seeds benefit by the chill. It sort of reminds them of cool spring nights then the warming days. It doesn't always matter, but it won't hurt either. The rate of chemical reaction increases with temperature so 75-90C is a good final temperature range until they sprout. The lower range is better for seedlings, making them hardier.

After they sprout be moderate with the water. This forces the roots to grow looking for it. Too much water sort of spoils the roots so they don't need to grow quite as well to find plenty of water. The result can be tall skinny plants due to the plant too dependant on its tap root. Bottom watering in a tray is better than top watering, since it won't compact the soil making it harder for the finest roots. One of my other tricks with seedlings, is only fill your starting soil container half way with the soil. The seedlings might still get tall. Then you backfill the pot the rest of the way to make the plants shorter again, by raising the height of the soil level. That makes part of the stem become root. The cells within the seedling's stem are still stem cells, and can re-differentiate to root cells.

[Essay]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

And really, why do plants want nitrogen? What is happening when a seed comes to life? What does it need to live?

Very good answer Maikeru, ...about the Nitrogen.
One bit of trivia is that the active site for photosynthesis contains two Magnesium atoms, each held in place by four Nitrogen atoms (total = eight Nitrogens/site).

...about seeds:
Seeds contain enough nutrients to sprout and develop into a seedling capable of photosynthesis and metabolizing the surrounding nutrients.
After that, plants rely on many metabolic pathways that are almost identical to animal metabolic pathways (...requiring the same nutrients). Animals synthesize sugar from broken down foodstuffs, whereas plants synthesize sugar from CO2 (via photosynthesis); but after that, plants and animals use sugar for energy, in growth and development, in about the same way.

...I think that's a valid summary (unless I've erred by oversimplifying).
I always welcome corrections or additions.
...but isn't it amazing how similar "life" is, underneath the "skin."

[nutronjon]

You all are so exciting. What a wonderful way to start the day. I never dreamed my efforts to garden would be so fun. You all have really added to the delight of the experience.

Okay I put my trays of plants in the bathroom and turned the heat lamp on.

I can't tell you what I am growing, because what is suppose to be broccoli looks nothing like broccoli. It looks my like a punny vine plant, perhaps the long purple eggplant? I must have confused my plants, when I put the seed packages with the plants, or the potting soil I bought, came with its own seeds. Whatever it is, it is growing fast, and appears to be reaching for something to climb on. My thymus and tomato needs to be transplant ASSP. I think the other thing growing is basil. But I can't find my broccoli. I think it must be the broccoli in the pots that have just a couple of tiny sprouts starting to peek out of the soil.

Why vodka instead of beer? It is easy to get beer in Oregon, but for vodka, I have to find a liguior store and that is inconvenient.

Easy, I had read the plants and animals have simiilar life functions, but my last thread got out to hand, and I am wanting to keep this one as simple as possible. that isn't looking so easy. But my gosh is this exciting!

The plants want oxygen, right? Well I have plenty of worms and will gladly give them leaves. Looks like the worms want plenty of water. I can't imagine them living in the brick hard clay. I am praying for rain, because our week of sun has dried out the soil so much, I can't work it. Look at this! I must not only have the right ingredients, but enough water for worms to move. I never thought of this before. And how about my microbes? Do they need plenty of water?

I wish I had more money. My truck load of good soil isn't going very far. I need sand desparately. Now I am really worried about my worms and microbes.

Oxygen, hyrodrogen, nitrogen How about a video I can plug into my VCR, showing the action of the atoms doing their thing? There is so much to think about. Life on the atom level, chemical level, interaction of worms, microbes and plant level. A video of all this would be so nice.