How intelligent are cephalopods?

[modest]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

OK I admit to being very much humanly connected with the octopus but while some of their behaviors might be based in instinctive scavenging and foraging (some of ours could be shown to be based that way too) Octopus do seem to be going beyond that basis to actually be curious about thing that have no survival advantage.

Curiosity suggests a kind of intelligence I don't think they posses. I don't think they are asking themselves, "what is this object all about" or "I wonder what would happen if I did this with it". I think their mannerisms suggest that to us, but their intelligence is in fact way off that mark.

Originally Posted by Moontanman

When I would give my octopuses (I love that word) a gift, I called it a gift due to their reactions, they seem to take great care in exploring the possibilities of what to do with the object. Rocks were just cleaned off and placed in the walls of the castle (often with great care but still the process only took a few minutes)

More unusual objects would get a greater response and a more prominent place in the castle walls. A very few objects would result in a much greater show of curiosity. Objects that floated caused especially strange behavior, often the octopus would drag it around for hours and even days before giving up on what to do with it.

One of the most interesting responses was triggered by metal. Copper or zinc coated nails were pushed as far away as possible but a titanium bolt was drug around off and on for weeks. Long ceramic guide pins seemed to be especially liked as building materials. Wood was ignored, sea shells were co-opted into it's home. Crayfish were eaten immediately!

I'm not sure nesting behavior can show intelligence by itself. Even if the animal is looking for the best things to take to its burrow. A trapdoor spider will do the same with leaves and grass and sticks - making a door with hinges and everything. Does this make it intelligent? Examining things and deciding where to put them doesn't in and of itself say intelligent to me. Even if it piled up things to make a fortress to hide behind, I still would not be convinced.

We need a test that can more convincingly show that this behavior has thought and intelligence behind it. We have such tests for mammals - even marine mammals.

Originally Posted by Moontanman

One octopus actually crawled from his marine tank to a freshwater tank containing crayfish to get a snack! He had to crawl through two other freshwater tanks to get to the crayfish!

One aquarium was at the foot of my bed, the rather large octopus would squirt me with water while I was in bed (very strange, when I was doing the horizontal bop with the wife was the only time he would do it) His aim was amazing!

-modest

[Moontanman]

I admit freely that my own interest in octopuses colored my ideas about them. One of the best incidents was the octopus vs cat battle! I had a cat that like most cats was always poking it's nose into places it didn't belong. The cat liked to walk across the tops of the aquariums and look at the fish swimming below. He especially like to park it on top of the octopus tank. One day while he was peering down into the tank the octopus slowly crept up to the surface and put an arm under the glass and out into the air. The cat was fascinated by the squirming thing and attacked it! Instantly the octopus pushed the top of the aquarium up and wrapped it's arms around the cat's neck! An unbelievable sound came out of the cat and a tug of war started with the cat rapidly loosing! I finally got up and rescued the cat but it never walked across the top of another aquarium!

[modest]

Do you still have one? Does anybody?

I’d think we could design a test of sorts.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by modest

Do you still have one? Does anybody?

I’d think we could design a test of sorts.

It's been a long time since I was able to collect my own, the ones available commercially are usually tiny tropical octopus and as such never get big enough to really interact with and some of them have a very dangerous bite. The local Octopus vulgarious can be rather large if feed enough and it's water is kept clean. Most of my experiences with octopus was way before I knew enough about them to know they didn't live long and that my quest to keep one as a pet was doomed from the start due to their short life spans. when I found out how ethereal their lives really were I stopped keeping them and started visiting them in the wild. since I was hurt I haven't been scuba diving, 20 plus years now.

[mynah]

One aquarium was at the foot of my bed, the rather large octopus would squirt me with water while I was in bed (very strange, when I was doing the horizontal bop with the wife was the only time he would do it) His aim was amazing!

Hope your wife was understanding - or it could have led to a very interesting divorce case in which the third party was listed as a jealous octopus...

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by mynah

Hope your wife was understanding - or it could have led to a very interesting divorce case in which the third party was listed as a jealous octopus...

Yeah, she has put up with a lot over the years, aquariums, snakes, turtles, plants, bonsai trees, the list is getting longer all the time. Her take is at least I'm not bar hopping and chasing other women but she is still jealous sometimes of my pets

[mynah]

I guess I could have handled all of those, except the bonsai trees. Taking care of someone else's bonsai trees is positively scary.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by mynah

I guess I could have handled all of those, except the bonsai trees. Taking care of someone else's bonsai trees is positively scary.

I always kept swamp trees so they didn't need to be watered, they grew in standing water

[modest]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

I always kept swamp trees so they didn't need to be watered, they grew in standing water

My plants follow a similar principle:



While I don't think the koi, goldfish, or plecos would take too well to an octopus : - I'm honestly starting to consider setting up a temporary salt water tank just to be able to design some memory mazes and other tests for our favorite cephalopod. I doubt anyone (present company excluded) would take the results too seriously, but I would.

Here's an idea, have a container/puzzle that is moderately difficult to open with something desirable inside. Put it in the tank each day and let the octopus open it and obtain the food. If the amount of time it takes to open the thing decreases then the animal has memory enough to recall the task. If it has to figure out how to open it again each day then the task is too complicated to remember.

If it does remember then a further objective would be skipping days longer and longer between container sessions to see how long it will retain the memory.

My suspision would be that the time required would be completely random. Some days it would accomplish the task very quickly while other days it would not accomplish it at all. This could be attributed to disinterest in the prize, but a control container could be set-up that opens effortlessly. If it has interest in the control then it should have interest in the puzzle.

I suppose I need to stop talking about this and do it. I already have an appropriate tank and pump. Never having set up a saltwater tank, I'll have some reading to do.

-modest

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by modest

My plants follow a similar principle:



While I don't think the koi, goldfish, or plecos would take too well to an octopus : - I'm honestly starting to consider setting up a temporary salt water tank just to be able to design some memory mazes and other tests for our favorite cephalopod. I doubt anyone (present company excluded) would take the results too seriously, but I would.

Here's an idea, have a container/puzzle that is moderately difficult to open with something desirable inside. Put it in the tank each day and let the octopus open it and obtain the food. If the amount of time it takes to open the thing decreases then the animal has memory enough to recall the task. If it has to figure out how to open it again each day then the task is too complicated to remember.

If it does remember then a further objective would be skipping days longer and longer between container sessions to see how long it will retain the memory.

My suspision would be that the time required would be completely random. Some days it would accomplish the task very quickly while other days it would not accomplish it at all. This could be attributed to disinterest in the prize, but a control container could be set-up that opens effortlessly. If it has interest in the control then it should have interest in the puzzle.

I suppose I need to stop talking about this and do it. I already have an appropriate tank and pump. Never having set up a saltwater tank, I'll have some reading to do.

-modest

Great looking pond, I do like ponds as well. To keep an octopus shouldn't be that difficult depending on the size of the octopus and the size of the tank. a surface water return overflow and a trickle filter with a sump should do it. maybe put a polyfilter in the sump and if you really want to get the water right a protean skimmer in the sump. the old octopus opening a screw top jar is done quite often and they do remember how even after weeks of no jar. they can solve puzzles and remember so don't stay too simple with your tests.