[modest]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

i am surprised no one has brought up the octopus... I saw a show on the science channel that showed a couple of possible ways this might be able to happen

I have seen a couple times on TV that cephalopods and octopuses in particular are rather intelligent. I’m checking it out online and the sites I’m looking at are claiming the same as - that skills and behavior are present in these animals that demonstrate complex thought and intelligence. After reading the examples and observations I completely disagree. It seems to me that cephalopods are perhaps rather intelligent compared to other invertebrates - but compared to mammals (any mammal) they are exceptionally dim-witted.

Here are some of the behaviors or experiments that are apparently impressive:

[(Everything discussed comes from these websites)
Cephalopod intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What is this octopus thinking?
Octopuses are Smart Suckers!? - The Cephalopod Page
and also the papers and research by:
Jean Boal, Ph.D]

• They have a memory. Impressive?
The experiment consisted of a few fake (inaccessible) burrows in the bottom of a tank along with a real burrow. The octopus was put in the tank and allowed to explore things many times over many days. Eventually the animal would remember which burrow was real and would go straight for it when put in the tank. The memory, once formed and reinforced, could last for a week. (1)

This is apparently impressive to Dr. Boal and others. I would point out that fruit flies have a memory too (2). They can learn and remember shapes and smells. Honey bees seem better at remembering where flowers are than octopuses are at remembering where a burrow is. And compared to mammals - well there’s no comparison. The octopus experiment (and other memory and recognition experiments in the links above) are not at all comparable to a typical matching-to-sample test of marine mammal memory.

• The octopus rips open, bores open, or smashes open a crab shell intelligently
Apparently an octopus does whatever it takes to kill a crab and open its shell in order to eat it. This observation is commented on throughout the links above once under the heading “Ivy League octopuses” I don’t see the substance to this whatsoever. I could similarly claim that the African driver ant is intelligent because it will do whatever it takes to dismantle its victim in order to get the pieces back to the nest. The ant will overcome the stickiness of a slug by soaking up the immobilizing slime with dirt. There is no intelligent thought behind this ostensibly complex action any more than a mosquito ‘understands’ the finer points of an intravenous syringe.

• cephalopods communicate intelligently (3)
Octopuses are not social but other cephalopods (squid and cuttlefish) are. They communicate with each other by flashing colorful patterns on their skin. Their skin has special cells with black, red, and yellow pigment controlled by muscles that are controlled directly by the brain. The patterns undoubtedly convey meaning. If a squid spots danger it will flash the hazard pattern which is spotted by the others in the group initiating evasion and defensive behavior by all. The question is how much meaning is conveyed here. While the method of delivering information is pretty unique, I don’t think the information itself is uniquely meaningful. Many invertebrates communicate simple ideas like alarm, familiarity, or location of food. Insect colonies such as termites are continuously passing information to one another via pheromones, vibrations, and physical touch. Honey bees can communicate with absolutely absurd efficiency exactly where food is just by dancing. I don’t think we can elevate cephalopod communication to an undue level above its fellow invertebrates.

• Octopuses are playful (4)
I’m unconvinced of this claim; nevertheless, actions that look like curiosity such as exploring a toy can be motivated by the evolutionary need to scavenge for food with no intelligence directing the action.

• Observational learning (5)
The new interest in cephalopod intelligence was apparently kicked off by this 1992 claim that octopuses could learn by watching others do. The results have never been reproduced but rather debunked (6) as more controls are put on the experiment.

I find it interesting how some claims so quickly and convincingly made on TV and the internet can be exaggerated so thoroughly. I don't believe an octopus has the kind of intelligence it's often attributed. Compared to mammals, I'd say they don't fare much better than most invertebrates.

Anyone think I'm off base?

-modest

[Moontanman]

You do raise some good points about cephalopod intelligence but I would rate them higher than bees or any other invertebrate by orders of magnitude. It's difficult to rate intelligence in a creature so far removed from the human experience. I would point out that I have raised at least a couple of dozen octopus and i found them to be quite engaging creatures. Much of their behavior reminded me of cats. I was able to replicate the octopus removing a screw lid from a jar, rubber stopper from a jar, and removing the end caps of a PVC pipe type experiments regularly. but beyond that was the personality of the octopus and how they used color to express their emotions, desires and needs. One of the most endearing behaviors I saw was the octopuses need for attention/interaction with it's environment and with it's keeper. One of the most quaint things they would do is lift the lid to their tank and squirt water at you to get your attention. Mine not only would allow me allow me to pet them they insisted on it! Giving them a new rock was like giving a kid a new toy and it would sometimes take an hour for the octopus to decide exactly where he wanted the rock in his "castle" If you removed a rock from it's proper place he would turn red and try to intimidate you and grab the rock and put it back where he had to begin with. Unusual objects were especially treated to the whole "wow, what is this and what can i do with it" process. during this process colors would ripple acorss the octopus like muticolored paint being poured over him! I had access to some unusual things from where I worked (very smooth, odd shaped, very heavy, hard, white objects) and my octopuses were in hog heaven when I would present them with something unusual. The closest mammal they reminded me of was a cat with hands.

[mynah]

Interesting that in my own mother tongue the name of the octopus literally means "sea cat".

Here's an interesting article that recently appeared in New Scientist:

The secret language of cuttlefish

One of the observations mentioned in the article is that cuttlefish, unlike other invertebrates, gear their responses to predators to the species involved.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Moontanman-Rather than quote your entire post I shall simply say -
That's awsome! Nobody in any of my tanks could even hope to pull any of that off.

[coldcreation]

I actually observed an octopus in the wild a few weeks ago. It was in the south of France, right off the coast of Collioure. It was about the size of an intermediary MacBook Pro.

They are very cool creatures for sure.

Does anyone know how large their brain is relative to their mass?

It seems to me that would be a good way to determine how intelligent they are in relation to other living creatures. Off hand, I would assoome some octopuses are brighter (or more dim wittid) than others: as is true for peeple.

[Moontanman]

Even in the wild an octopus will exhibit behaviors that are difficult to explain as instinctive. If you give them time and don't act aggressively a largish octopus will actually explore you. One summer a scuba buddy and me found an octopus much larger than the ones we normally encountered. If it was spread out like the spokes of a wheel it would probably have been eight feet or more across. It lived under a large piece of metal in the middle of the inland waterway. We liked to dive at night and when we found him he was immediately aggressive and wanted to pull off our face masks and other wise explore our equipment. We started feeding him every week, bringing him large rock crabs and other delicacies. Eventually he would actually ride around on our backs as we explored the area around his lair. We went down after the water had turned cold in October and I got to see "her" one last time sitting on a huge group of eggs.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

I lived under a large piece of metal in the middle of the inland waterway.

Dude, that must have sucked!



I love your octopus stories! If you have more to share, there's at least one set of eyes here that would love to read them.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by freeztar

Dude, that must have sucked!



I love your octopus stories! If you have more to share, there's at least one set of eyes here that would love to read them.

Yeah, the worst part was the shrimp boats dragging thier nets over me several times a night. You could hear the motor of the boat and a few minutes later the ghostly form of the net, glowing with phosphorescence, would rush at me from the dark water! Keeping out of that net was not easy!

[modest]

Does anyone think this behavior that looks inquisitive and looks like curiosity actually is curiosity? Or, is it just evolutionary programming geared toward scavenging and foraging that we humans are imposing human characteristics on? I think it’s the latter.

-modest

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by modest

Does anyone think this behavior that looks inquisitive and looks like curiosity actually is curiosity? Or, is it just evolutionary programming geared toward scavenging and foraging that we humans are imposing human characteristics on? I think it’s the latter.

-modest

OK I admit to being very much humanly connected with the octopus but while some of their behaviors might be based in instinctive scavenging and foraging (some of ours could be shown to be based that way too) Octopus do seem to be going beyond that basis to actually be curious about thing that have no survival advantage.

When I would give my octopuses (I love that word) a gift, I called it a gift due to their reactions, they seem to take great care in exploring the possibilities of what to do with the object. Rocks were just cleaned off and placed in the walls of the castle (often with great care but still the process only took a few minutes)

More unusual objects would get a greater response and a more prominent place in the castle walls. A very few objects would result in a much greater show of curiosity. Objects that floated caused especially strange behavior, often the octopus would drag it around for hours and even days before giving up on what to do with it.

One of the most interesting responses was triggered by metal. Copper or zinc coated nails were pushed as far away as possible but a titanium bolt was drug around off and on for weeks. Long ceramic guide pins seemed to be especially liked as building materials. Wood was ignored, sea shells were co-opted into it's home. Crayfish were eaten immediately!

One octopus actually crawled from his marine tank to a freshwater tank containing crayfish to get a snack! He had to crawl through two other freshwater tanks to get to the crayfish!

One aquarium was at the foot of my bed, the rather large octopus would squirt me with water while I was in bed (very strange, when I was doing the horizontal bop with the wife was the only time he would do it) His aim was amazing!