Neanderthals, how human were they?

[Moontanman]

If Neanderthals had survived in some remote local would we recognize them as human? How different could they be and still be thought of as human, would they have to live in villages to seen as human? Or could a group of Neanderthal hunter gatherers be seen as human or would we just think of them as especially bright apes? Here are some recent links....

Last Neanderthals Were Smart : Discovery News : Discovery Channel
Britain’s last Neanderthals were more sophisticated than we thought
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Neanderthals 'were flame-haired'
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | The icy truth behind Neanderthals
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Neanderthal climate link debated
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Neanderthal DNA secrets unlocked

[Overdog]

I think if they were alive today it would probably be a question the court's would have to decide. I read a story once about a man who had "created" a species of living creatures that, to outward appearances looked human, but were not legally human, and the man then "murdered" one of them as a way of forcing the legal system to recognize them as "human".

[Janus]

Neanderthal man is classified as homo sapiens. In fact, if you dressed one up and put him on a crowded sidewalk, nobody would give him a second look.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by Janus

Neanderthal man is classified as homo sapiens. In fact, if you dressed one up and put him on a crowded sidewalk, nobody would give him a second look.

Have a look here:
Neanderthal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Neandertal, was a species of the Homo genus (Homo neanderthalensis or Homo sapiens neanderthalensis)[1] which inhabited Europe and parts of western and central Asia. The first proto-Neanderthal traits appeared in Europe as early as 350-500 thousand years ago.[2] By 130,000 years ago, complete Neanderthal characteristics had appeared and by 50,000 years ago, Neanderthals disappeared from Asia, although they did not reach extinction in Europe until 30,000 years ago.

[modest]

Originally Posted by Janus

Neanderthal man is classified as homo sapiens. In fact, if you dressed one up and put him on a crowded sidewalk, nobody would give him a second look.

Probably would warrant a second look:


-source

I've also wondered why we assume they were not as bright as modern man. Their brain was bigger and they've been found with well-made tools and jewelry. Yet most of what I see on TV and the like is about how stupid they were (compared to us) and that's why the died off.

~modest

[Overdog]

Originally Posted by modest

I've also wondered why we assume they were not as bright as modern man.

Yes, there does seem to be that cultural association <--Neanderthal = Caveman = Not Very Intelligent-->

"It's so easy even a caveman could do it..."

(I hate those commercials.)

I'm not sure how or when this association became firmly established in popular culture, but no doubt Hollywood had a lot to do with it.

I note however that you said "not as bright" and ""stupid", and never said "not as intelligent".

I'm curious about your choice of words, does "not as bright" mean something different to you than "not as intelligent" ?

[Boerseun]

We can't say Neanderthallers were as intelligent or more intelligent as modern humans, regardless of brain size. If intelligence was defined by brain size, then elephants and whales would rule. I do think, however, that contact with Neanderthals could have given rise to the (initially oral)mythologies of "back when Giants walked the Earth", as found in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible - a document underwritten by both Islam and Judaism.

Interesting, nonetheless...

[Overdog]

Originally Posted by Boerseun

We can't say Neanderthallers were as intelligent or more intelligent as modern humans, regardless of brain size. If intelligence was defined by brain size, then elephants and whales would rule.

Yes, I agree. The definition of "Intelligence" is so fuzzy that I try to avoid using the word. (and I suspect Modest did not use it intentionally).

But the word "bright", is often a synonym for "intelligent".

I would guess that Neanderthal Man's extinction had very little to do with how bright they were. But I think Modest was wondering why there seems to be this general assumption....

[Janus]

Originally Posted by Boerseun

We can't say Neanderthallers were as intelligent or more intelligent as modern humans, regardless of brain size. If intelligence was defined by brain size, then elephants and whales would rule. I do think, however, that contact with Neanderthals could have given rise to the (initially oral)mythologies of "back when Giants walked the Earth", as found in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible - a document underwritten by both Islam and Judaism.

Interesting, nonetheless...

At at an average height of 5'5" (comparable to the height of modern humans of the time), they would hardly be thought of as "giants".

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Janus

At at an average height of 5'5" (comparable to the height of modern humans of the time), they would hardly be thought of as "giants".

Studies of the bones and the scars left by muscle and tendon attachments suggest very strongly that Neanderthals would have been many times as strong as a human. a normal Neanderthal would have made a human body builder look like a skinny wimp. His arms would have been bigger than a well developed humans legs. Such a strong man would have through retelling of twice told tales been easily distorted into giants as the only explanation of how they could be so much stronger than a human, just like reports of gorillas were stretched until gorillas reached monstrous proportions until the were discovered as the gentile vegetarian creatures they really are. .