[nutronjon]

My statement that brain development continues until age 25 was questioned, so is the result of a google search.

TIME Magazine: Secrets of the Teen BrainBut also a host of structural changes in the brain. ... If brains are not fully mature until age 25, should people not be considered legal adults until that ...
TIME Magazine: Secrets of the Teen Brain - 39k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

News in Health, September 2005 - (NIH)Until age 25, the part of our brain that governs judgment, decision-making and impulse control is still under construction, so a parent’s job as “foreman” ...
newsinhealth.nih.gov/2005/September2005/docs/01features_02.htm - 16k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Brain matures a few years late in ADHD, but follows normal patternNov 12, 2007 ... Maturation of the brain as reflected in the age at which a cortex ... the brain matures in a normal pattern but is delayed three years in ...
Brain matures a few years late in ADHD, but follows normal pattern - 26k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

When does the brain reach maturity? - Yahoo! Answersmy friend says that the male brain matures at age ... ... I do believe the age is 25. I was unaware it differed by sex. 3 months ago ...
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080320133029AAvm9pa - 38k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Developmental Brain Research : Influence of age on the cerebral ...Sherwood, N.M., Timiras, P.S., A Stereotaxic Atlas of the Developing Rat Brain. University of California Press, Berkeley, 1970. 25. J. Towfighi, J.Y. Yager, ...
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0165380697000369 - Similar pages - Note this

Welcome to WAIT Training - Abstinence and Marriage EducationRisky Behavior Diminishes At Age 25, NIH Study Finds ... As important, Giedd said, is the study's finding that the brain matures in a series of fits and ...
Welcome to WAIT Training - Abstinence and Marriage Education - 31k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Psychology Today: The Pill ParadoxBut the development of new brain scanners has led to a startling finding. It is now clear that the brain continues to grow and develop until about age 25. ...
psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-3515.html - 50k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Expert: Teen brain key to understanding criminal behavior - CNN.comBrain scans show that the frontal lobes don't mature until age 25, and their connections to other parts of the brain continue to improve to at least that ...
Expert: Teen brain key to understanding criminal behavior - CNN.com - 75k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Waiting For The Impulsive Brain To Mature | Parenting SquadJan 24, 2008 ... Waiting For The Impulsive Brain To Mature ... Don’t allow my child to take advantage of teen-age babysitters, childcare providers, ...
parentingsquad.com/waiting-for-the-impulsive-brain-to-mature - 59k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

My statement that brain development continues until age 25 was questioned, so is the result of a google search.

Good go nutron, the last two links were very interesting, I have often said that when I look back on my life I am sure I wasn't really mature until around age 25 or older. (maybe 30) I have also watched my boys grow and mature and while both of them have matured greatly from preteen to age 26 for the oldest and 20 for the youngest at around 24 or so for the oldest an almost profound change came around that time. Has anyone else ever noticed this change?

[freeztar]

Thank you for providing evidence to support your claim.

[Overdog]

nutron, good post! Do you think it's important to distinguish between "brain development" and "maturity"?

[nutronjon]

Originally Posted by Overdog

nutron, good post! Do you think it's important to distinguish between "brain development" and "maturity"?

I think this distinction would be difficult to establish, and I am so glad people are willing to talk civilly about this. Do you have more to say about this distinction?

Moontanman, thanks for sharing your thoughts. While our families are not empirical information, it is our human experience that gives meaning to all else. My daughter has run away from home, leaving he two daughters and son to fend for themselves. It is awful dealing with teenagers without social support, and we have nothing like the social support of the 1950's, which was a little extreme in the opposite ultra, conservative direction. It is hard to speak of this without offending the young, I remember how grown up I thought I was, but we do need to talk.

Not only is our judgment impaired by slow brain development, but "love" destroys the little bit of judgment we might have. Brain scans of people "in love" show the decision making part of the brain turns off and the pleasure part is turned up high. This is great for population growth, but not so good for the institution of marriage and the family order of society. My grandmothers generation delayed marriage until age 30. I am not sure why. I do know for a period of time, it was commonly held that age 30 is still youth. I think was the result of liberal education and humanities. Modern science is just catching up past wisdom.

Back to parenting youth, this is a very serious question. We don't just turn 18 and suddenly become an adult. Actually our judgment is terrible, and mixing the sexes, risking "love" makes it even worse. And we are living in a time devoid of wisdom and blaming parents for normal youthful folly, which is made all the worse by an amoral society without defined ,culturally shared morals. The kids educated for technology are so sure they are smarter than the rest of the human race, and legally they have adult status too young, making things even worse for parents trying to keep them out of harms way. They are very smart, but they are not wise. Wisdom takes judgment, and their brains aren't ready for that. A lot of hurting and social problems come out of this, and isn't better that we discuss this with knowledge coming from science, than with the religious explanation of human nature?

PS Overdog, I am a gerontologist- that is the study of aging focused mostly on the elderly. Your question is just as important for understanding the oldest population as the young ones. Being old does not necessarily mean mature, nor wise. In fact, our society is full of people who got hung up somewhere in the growing up process. Especially those addicted to drugs are no more mature than the day the became addicted. Right now, in the US society, we have adults who are still children who get old, they are not mature, nor moving towards wisdom. Mythology is about transition youth to adulthood and we forgot the importance of it.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

My grandmothers generation delayed marriage until age 30. I am not sure why. I do know for a period of time, it was commonly held that age 30 is still youth. I think was the result of liberal education and humanities. Modern science is just catching up past wisdom.
.

Nutron, where did you get the delayed marriage until age 30 from? My grandmother told of being considered an old maid if you weren't married by 18, 14 to 16 was the norm. The further back you go the earlier marriage is considered to be necessary. I have heard that back in the Days of the British empire men were told to not marry until they were in their 30's but they always married girls in their teens.

[nutronjon]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Nutron, where did you get the delayed marriage until age 30 from? My grandmother told of being considered an old maid if you weren't married by 18, 14 to 16 was the norm. The further back you go the earlier marriage is considered to be necessary. I have heard that back in the Days of the British empire men were told to not marry until they were in their 30's but they always married girls in their teens.

Good point. We are both right. It depended on where people were living. There were women in the west who were very upset about the uproar about slavery, when their own slavery was ignored because we called it "marriage". This reality played into the reality of delayed marriage for those women who had employment opportunity. Depending on where a woman lived, not all of them had employment opportunities, and cowgirls, those who were married to ranchers or could own their own land and hire help, had more freedom them many women. pushing the women's liberation issue.

Your question trigered a memory. The Victorian period, ended a period of sentiment and self-indulgence. We say the Victorian era was in the 1800's, and this influenced my grandmother's generation. Victoria was the Queen of England, and this influenced a women's movement in the US, that was also influenced by industrialization and employment opportunity for women. However, unlike the women's liberation of the 1960's these women didn't see sexual freedom as liberating, but enslaving. I agree with these old gals. Mothers are not liberated women!

Now things are starting to make sense to me as I put together vague and seemly unportant memories, that need to fleshed out with research. I have a women's liberation novel from this period and was surprised by thoughts in this book, because I wasn't expecting a women's liberation sentiment that early in our history. Thanks to you and your question, it is all coming together.

Moontanman, you have away of disagreeing with me that is so gracious it stimulates intellectual exploration. When I am put on the defensive, my mind shuts down, but you didn't put me on the defensive. You just pointed out my statement was not the whole truth, and that stirred my thinking in away I absolutely love. It is this intellectual stimulation that keeps bring me back, but sometimes the draught of intellectual stimulation that throws me in defenisve tail spin that closes down my thinking, is almost more than I can endure. It is disagreements that keep discussions going, so they are a good thing, when done as graciously as your questioning of what I said was so.

As a woman filled with women liberation concerns, your manner is important to me. As you know I am not a guy and don't function like a male, but that does not make me infurior. I think the feminine aspect is essential to civilization, and thank you for respecting me and also being sensitive to the fact that I am not 100% like a man.

Yipes this got off subject, but we can bring it back by saying there is an evident difference between male and female mental development.

[Overdog]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

I think this distinction would be difficult to establish, and I am so glad people are willing to talk civilly about this. Do you have more to say about this distinction?

....PS Overdog, I am a gerontologist- that is the study of aging focused mostly on the elderly. Your question is just as important for understanding the oldest population as the young ones. Being old does not necessarily mean mature, nor wise. In fact, our society is full of people who got hung up somewhere in the growing up process. Especially those addicted to drugs are no more mature than the day the became addicted. Right now, in the US society, we have adults who are still children who get old, they are not mature, nor moving towards wisdom. Mythology is about transition youth to adulthood and we forgot the importance of it.

I think you did an excellent job of pointing out the distinction. So the physical development of the brain completes around the age of 25. But the maturity you are talking about presumably continues, right? So assuming the development of maturity isn't interrupted by drug addiction or something, how long does it continue? I don't imagine you would disagree that people develop maturity at differring rates.

Since you have a lot of experience with this, aside from senility or disease, does maturity decline or cease to advance when we get old?

[nutronjon]

Originally Posted by Overdog

I think you did an excellent job of pointing out the distinction. So the physical development of the brain completes around the age of 25. But the maturity you are talking about presumably continues, right? So assuming the development of maturity isn't interrupted by drug addiction or something, how long does it continue? I don't imagine you would disagree that people develop maturity at differring rates.

Since you have a lot of experience with this, aside from senility or disease, does maturity decline or cease to advance when we get old?

Not everyone develops maturity. In the past, some men liked the wives to be like cute little girls and if these females have been pampered their whole lives, at age 80 they are no more mature than the day they got married.

We do not all develop at the same rate, nor do we develop the same. Some people develop very good personal and some never do. Some people thrive on having responsibility while others avoid it at all cost. Some people become enlightened and others do not.

The purpose of mythology, be it Christian, Egyptian, Mayan, Greek, is to transition youth to adulthood. The goals of maturity can vary by sex or culture or circumtance. The US had liberal education focused on preparing the young for independent thinking and good moral judgment. When this was replaced with education for technology for military and industrial purpose, the result has been adults who are not mature, and this is devastating.

[Overdog]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

The purpose of mythology, be it Christian, Egyptian, Mayan, Greek, is to transition youth to adulthood. The goals of maturity can vary by sex or culture or circumtance. The US had liberal education focused on preparing the young for independent thinking and good moral judgment. When this was replaced with education for technology for military and industrial purpose, the result has been adults who are not mature, and this is devastating.

I'm not sure I agree...to me mythologies arise from our efforts to find meaning and understanding of the world. It is the job of Parents to transition their offspring sucessfully to adulthood, taking advantage of social institutions, extended family and friends.

I don't think the liberal education you are talking about was ever replaced. As far as I can see it's alive and well. The problem is that too many young people are choosing that route, and the result is a big shortage of qualified technologists and scientists....

Education requirements range from an associate degree to a doctoral degree.
Employment is expected to increase much faster than the average as organizations continue to expand their use of technology.
Workers must be able to learn new technologies quickly for these constantly evolving occupations...

Computer scientists and database administrators are projected to be one of the fastest growing occupations over the next decade. Strong employment growth combined with a limited supply of qualified workers will result in excellent employment prospects for this occupation and a high demand for their skills.

Computer Scientists and Database Administrators

Edit:

Here's another interesting link:

Is There a U.S. Shortage of Scientists and Engineers? It Depends Where You Live - Population Reference Bureau