Evolution interferring with religion?

[IrishEyes]

Please bring this one back to topic. It did not begin as an argument for or against any god, and it really shouldn't go there. We have *endless* threads that are dedicated to the fight between the gods/no-gods camps. We don't need another one.

And C1ay and Tormod, quit fighting, as you seem to be agreeing but not wanting to agree. That's just silly. Neither of you believe in any type of God, but one of you is willing to go all the way to atheism, while one is still holding out for agnosticism. Neither is right or wrong, it's just what you are. Why quibble?

And Stargazer, chill out. Nobody is trying to force you to believe in God, or IPU, or anything else. As long as there are people that DO believe in those things though, they deserve the same amount of respect that you do. Whether or not you find their beliefs or positions valid or deplorable, you are not superior to them in any way, nor are they superior to you. Your skepticism is bordering on scorn, and that is not acceptable here.

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by IrishEyes

Please bring this one back to topic. It did not begin as an argument for or against any god, and it really shouldn't go there.

You're right. Sorry

[RiverRat]

I read a few years ago that the probability of our universe even existing was … one chance out of 10 to the power of ten to the one hundred and twenty-fourth power.

Now… I’m not sure how one could calculate this number and I’m not sure if it is reasonable accurate … but even if it is in the ballpark … this probability can not even be comprehended. I remember footnotes stating that an emanate cosmologist indicated that this is a powerful sign of ID directly from science.

I also remember a few years ago a book lecture on public TV about string theory. I think it may have been Green explaining the theory in relationship to the ‘elegant universe’. After his book lecture, he fielded questions and at the very end an attendee asked if what he sees in his research and in his data is ‘too elegant’ to be truly random and if everything may be by design. I do not remember his exact words but I do recall that his brief answer leaned more towards ID. He even chuckled and jokingly said something like “imagine that …” as if he could not believe what he just said.

Tormond … I tried to post in the ‘lounge’ but was not able.

Re Infinity … did not Hilbert state … infinite is nowhere to be found in reality. It neither exists in nature, nor provides a legitimate basis for rational thought. ... The role that remains for infinite to play is solely that of an idea.

[IrishEyes]

Tormond … I tried to post in the ‘lounge’ but was not able.

As long as you respect the rules of the Lounge, I see no reason for you not to post there. I'll add you right now, unless someone has already done that. Please make sure that you read the special rules that apply there, and remember that it is not like the rest of the Forums, ok?

[Stargazer]

Originally Posted by bumab

So limited time duration = lack of meaning? Just because the universe might not be around forever doesn't imply it lacks meaning. If so... everything under the sun is meaningless.

Maybe there is a meaning to all of this, but how would we know? It would imply that there is someone who created it all, with an intention for something. When I say the universe has no meaning, I'm saying that whatever meaning it does have is whatever meaning we give it. Mostly because nothing else can do that, but we can. So the universe is without meaning in one way, and not in another.

I think you were making the point that the universe is meaningless... but the argument doesn't make sense. Trying to anticipate the argument- since you see no evidence of meaning, the universe is meaningless. I can't give you physical evidence of meaning, so don't bother asking , but personal evidence, how we all feel about ourselves, how people throughout history have sought (and found meaning), perhaps thats something.

It's impossible to find the meaning of the universe, since we have yet to meet whoever gave it meaning... right? And yes, I agree, the only meaning there is, is whatever we can give it, which also, of course, means that it's just a matter of subjective opinion - much like we have subjective opinions on what music is good etc. It's not an objective truth.

[Stargazer]

Originally Posted by Tormod

You are unclear. Is this YOUR point or are you laughing at someone? Because this is a hilarious statement. How can you know that A) the universe lacks meaning,

I was poking at those who always claim that the universe is finetuned for life.

B) that it won't exists forever

It will not exist in a way that will sustain life forever. The universe is expanding in an accelerating rate, and stars wont live forever either. Whether it will die a heatdeath or in a big rip, life will be difficult to preserve forever.

C) that it is fine-tuned to life?

Creationists are saying this. I'm certainly not! Sorry if I was unclear.

The universe certainly has a meaning to me.

Exactly, but it's not an objective meaning. Before there was life in this universe there was nothing that could look at the universe and marvel at it as we do. It's subjective opinions and feelings, but not an objective truth.

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by IrishEyes

As long as you respect the rules of the Lounge, I see no reason for you not to post there. I'll add you right now, unless someone has already done that. Please make sure that you read the special rules that apply there, and remember that it is not like the rest of the Forums, ok?

Just remember that for anyone to be able to post in the lounge they need to read the "Lounge Rules" sticky thread in the lounge, then apply to join the lounge via their user control panel > group memberships.

[Stargazer]

Originally Posted by IrishEyes

And Stargazer, chill out. Nobody is trying to force you to believe in God, or IPU, or anything else.

Force wouldn't work anyway. Evidence would be much more effective. When people say they have strong reasons to believe the biblical creation while rejectiong theories backed by evidence, I don't think I'm going too far by asking what those reasons are. I'm clearly wasting my time, but that's my time. I know that I will never be presented with evidence of any kind. We all know why!

As long as there are people that DO believe in those things though, they deserve the same amount of respect that you do.

Terribly sorry, but I can't respect such beliefs. I respect people as people. I accept their beliefs (I'm a liberal, freedom and all that), but I can't make myself to respect them. Sorry. If someone believe in something that does not go against actual evidence, then sure. But when someone decides to believe in something that is clearly not true, then it could be because of honest misunderstandings and honest ignorance due to them living in pre-technological cultures or perhaps in poor countries where they couldn't recieve an education. But I would like to think that in Europe and North America, for example, there is education for everyone, there are libraries, and these countries are at the forefront of science... it's just strange that one would decide to reject a highly successful theory and pick something that goes against all obsevations.

Whether or not you find their beliefs or positions valid or deplorable, you are not superior to them in any way, nor are they superior to you. Your skepticism is bordering on scorn, and that is not acceptable here.

My skepticism is skepticism. Maybe it's how I present it that offends people who are not skeptics, who think science and reason can be ignored?

Is it really that strange that I find it frustrating to hear people say all kinds of unsupported and even false things, and when asked for any kind of evidence, I get nothing? No, it's not.

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by IrishEyes

And C1ay and Tormod, quit fighting.

Oh darn, Irish is back. Sorry, C1ay!

[IrishEyes]

Originally Posted by Stargazer

Maybe it's how I present it that offends people

Yes, this could very well be true.
I also did not ask you to respect anyone's beliefs. I do REQUIRE that you show respect to the members of this forum, regardless of what beliefs they hold or do not hold. This particular point is *not* open for discussion. I am not, hear me again - NOT, asking you to respect any belief that you do not accept, but I am telling you that while in this forum, every member *deserves* the same amount respect. If you refuse to exhibit that respect, or if you show *dis*respect to any member, we will have problems. This is NOT directed only to Stargazer, but to EVERYONE that visits Hypography. NOBODY is above this. I can not stress this point enough.
No more discussion should be necessary on this "respect" point.
Period.