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Old 12-12-2008   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Algae.

Hi Froggy,
Quote:
Originally Posted by froggy View Post
...how enough energy can be produced with the algae to raise (or lower) the temp of the medium ?
Twice now, if I understand correctly, you ask about changing the temperature of the medium
...based on metabolic heating by the algae?

Is that right? I don't understand how or why this is necessary. Can't passive heating/cooling be used? Please explain my misunderstanding, if that's the case.
...or do you mean getting enough fuel out of the algae to keep the system heated (or economically feasible?)?

Thanks,
~
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Old 12-12-2008   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Algae.

Let me be clear-er.

The temperature outside of the PBR is either less than, greater than or equal to the parameters of the system for the algae to grow. Thus, the system must be heated, cooled or left alone, depending on outside conditions to grow algae. How do you plan on doing this energy intensive task?

My contention is that the energy needed to regulate the system to provide the algae a living and thriving temperature far outweights the amount of energy yield from the algae product itself. Infact, its not even close. Even the most simple of calculations can show this.

My contention is that the EROI of a PBR is likely a losing battle on this simple process engineering item alone. Certainly this is the case where heating is needed, such as Colorado and/or where cooling is needed, such as the deserts of Sahara. And this ignores all the other energy intensive processing of commercial algal culture.
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Old 12-12-2008   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Algae.

Quote:
Originally Posted by froggy View Post
Even on the most massive of scales, we are likely talking in the $'s/lb range whilst most largescale ag crops are in the pennies/lb range.

Im saying that the myth of algae has far exceeded the prospects of said product in the modern economy.

and after I get 10 posts, I'll link some sites to back up my claims
Froggy
Okay....

Looking forward to learning more about this....

~
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Old 12-12-2008   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Algae.

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Originally Posted by Essay View Post
Okay....

Looking forward to learning more about this....

~
Does this link work?

If it does, please read thru this and his 'greenfuels study'. When you are done with that, read this Dr Benemann's article.

If you need more than that, let me know and we can go thru all of this step by step as soon as someone offers a specific step to work out and not just fuzzy details.
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Old 12-12-2008   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Algae.

here is a link to a recent algae conference where they talk about price and supposid time lines.

Let me give you a hint, when someone says 5-10 yrs, it really means no where in sight.
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Old 12-13-2008   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Algae.

Thanks for the great links!
Now I understand what you've been saying. I'm still not sure I agree, but will discuss this after getting more informed.
I'm still finding a few minutes here and there to wade through... I'm still on the first one actually, so... (guess I can only comment on the first one so far).

I think there is plenty more to say, as well as read between the lines of these links, i.e.
this linkback from your first link.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biopact
Bioenergy pact between Europe and Africa
The Aquatic Species Program experimented with closed photobioreactors for a while, but quickly dismissed them as being too impractical and costly. It therefor concentrated on growing algae in open ponds from the start, an effort it pursued over the decades that followed.
I'll be back....

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Old 12-13-2008   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Algae.

I'll just throw in a little thought here
Pyrolysis to make char can work with feedstock of 70% water
Of course at this level of water you harvest little electrical energy.

There are parts of the world a lot sunnier than the USA. This Island I live in for example.
We don't even need fresh water we can use salt.


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Old 12-14-2008   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Algae.

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Pyrolysis to make char can work with feedstock of 70% water
Of course at this level of water you harvest little electrical energy.
I think you made a typo. Pyrolysis cannot function with 30% solids. You must have ment 70% solids.

And even at 70% solids, this is not going to produce an exothermic condition. Typically feedstocks are in the high 80's% solid range for net power from pyrolysis.

But this is a teachable moment... Imagine you want to grow algae energy. First you start out with a maximum of ~ 100g of product with a intrinsic value of 30% solids floating around in 1ton of water. And its your job to dry that material to the high 80% solid range. This is not a trivial matter...
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Old 12-14-2008   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Algae.

What a fascinating view back into the history of this subject.
Now we know what happened to the money appropriated for those weird little R&D projects that Congress worked into bills to appease the environmentalists.

It looks to be a very thin little ribbon of research winding its way from the 70's and through the 80's

Their concept of a PBR is fairly constrained--sounding like something designed for a spacecraft, on a long spaceflight. It's a neat idea, like a terrarium for algae, but with nutrient input and harvesting. ....Very high-tech.

But that is your point, I suppose.
Even the most low-tech options require a lot of high-tech materials and controls.

I'm surprised (but shouldn't be) that the algae is so sensitive and temperamental; ...and both to daily fluctuations and to seasonal variations.
Grazers feasting on the algae at various times was another factor that, while I've known about them, I'd never connected with algae as a problem--but of course, it is a problem.

...And all that optimizing of the productivity within the lifecycle and conditions....
...and the Harvesting problems!

Lots of hurdles and a few dead-ends....
No wonder this wasn't easily ramped up, way-back-when.
===

I still can't help but think that at just about every step along the difficult path, they could have explored many other possibilities, options, or techniques. Every time they find results which they don't understand -is an opportunity for much more research (given enough funding and inspiration).

I know as a government project, they were probably limited in both funding and inspiration; and this story certainly sounds like a good example of how government can drive something into the ground.
===

...some random thoughts:

It sounds to me like they need to create a simple ecosystem supporting various algal species, rather than maximizing a monoculture of algal crops.
I also think that they need to focus less on oil content and more on productivity.

Oil content rises in response to various stresses.
When they isolate a high-lipid species, it's already living in stressed conditions (for its normal preference).
Probably be pretty hard to cultivate under our "normal" conditions.

Get high productivity first, and then stress the algae to drive up the oil content.

At so many points they reach a "dead-end" and go off in another direction, without even rethinking the original problem so as to avoid the dead-end.
===

Quotes (& some thoughts) along the way:

Bioenergy pact between Europe and Africa

"the yield is limited by the amount of energy (sunlight) available – so improving the cultivating conditions follows the law of diminishing returns, as every percentage of yield that one can wrestle out becomes harder and harder as one approaches the theoretical limit."
But isn't this true of terrestrial plants too?

"while it may be theoretically possible to achieve growth rates that are up to ten times higher than the best terrestrial growth rates (in the tropics), the expenses associated with PBRs are hundreds of times larger than terrestrial cultivation, making PBRs economically illogical:"

"photosynthetic capture through PBRs, which are the most expensive extreme in the algae sector. Going down the expense curve, there are approaches - such as open ponds - that are less expensive; potentially there may be some optimum where microalgae cultivation becomes cheap enough yet with sufficient control over external conditions to secure reasonable yields. Open ponds, are still iffy in my opinion, however, they are not as absurd as PBRs."

"There is no question that microalgae have the potential for high productivity per area, albeit with all associated high cultivation costs."
...and nothing can be done about these "high cultivation costs."

"This CO2 from emerging liquid fuels is in addition to the new cohort of coal-fired power plants that is coming online."

"When the world gets to actually doing something concrete and meaningful in regard to global warming, I strongly believe that the only option left would be to scrub CO2 from the air, I will be writing on that in the near future."
Yes, ...like with algae (but not focusing on high lipid content necessarily).

"Concentrated Solar Power. It is a viable solar conversion approach and we will likely see CSP grow in significance. CSP generates electricity, however that does not address the transportation sector, as the problem with electric cars is still their range. We believe that nanotechnology can play significant role in designing batteries with higher and higher energy densities so that electric cars charged on CSP electricity can become reality. At AIBN we have several projects on using nanotechnology for improved battery performance."

"Realistically, I don’t expect that energy densities will ever approach these of liquid hydrocarbons, however, electric cars, in addition to lowering emissions have other benefits...."
"So, if you are to ask me today, what 'sustainable future' I believe has the best chance of succeeding in the long run, it will be electricity generation via CSP tied to electric cars for transportation. That’s something that could take 25-30 years to materialize in scale, but it has a shot."

0-0-0

http://www.nanostring.net/Algae/CaseStudy.pdf

"Liquid fuels or biogas can potentially be generated from biomass by pyrolytic, non-fermentative processes. Research on such technologies has been going on for more than 80 years, as it would allow the use of much cheaper feedstocks (grassy and woody residues, municipal solid waste, etc.), however, so far no significant commercial installations have been established. A major disadvantage of pyrolysis, when compared to transesterification and fermentation, is the high energy needs of the process. It requires external heating to 300-800oC, making it obvious that the energy ratios would be much worse than for fermentation or transesterification (we have not been able to find a study on pyrolysis with a credible energy balance in it)."
CSP??? How about using Concentrated Solar Power.

Well, I'm still reading. I read a bit and then go think for a while, imagining the past and wondering about all the potential futures that were not realized back then--so much potential.

But I'm still glad all this basic research was done. Even the failures are very instructive.
More later:
...and thanks again for the links!

~
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Old 12-14-2008   #20 (permalink)
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Smile Re: Algae.

Quote:
Originally Posted by froggy View Post
I think you made a typo. Pyrolysis cannot function with 30% solids. You must have ment 70% solids. r...
No typo.
This is what BEST Energies claim they can do with papermill waste. Waste that at present is put in landfill happily polluting groundwater and producing methane..

You may even extract a trickle of bio-oil? you would have to check with BEST on that


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