Evolution Pros and Cons

[questor]

This thread shows that none of us are experts on this subject. I do not think the evidence of evolution is overwhelming as yet.When it is, there will be no questions from me. Galapagos, you have called me a liar but not presented the lie that I told. Would you like to apologize or produce the truth? You do not need to post any more links to Wikipedia since they do not answer my questions. You have finally gotten down to the level of enzymatic reactions but these are molecules which need something to motivate their activity. Every link you have posted gives reactions which must have some causal factor. Do you know what that factor is?
None of the biochemical molecules have a brain, so what causes their activity?

[Galapagos]

Originally Posted by questor

This thread shows that none of us are experts on this subject. I do not think the evidence of evolution is overwhelming as yet. When it is, there will be no questions from me.

Then your beliefs are at odds with the scientific data and the consensus of the biological science community. You have simply not acknowledged the majority of the evidence(or presented a rival hypothesis, for that matter).

This is also an argument from incredulity on your part; a fallacy and failure to reason properly.
When you are ready, feel free to acknowledge the genetic evidence for common descent:
Evidence of common descent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: the Scientific Case for Common Descent

Originally Posted by questor

Galapagos, you have called me a liar but not presented the lie that I told. Would you like to apologize or produce the truth? You do not need to post any more links to Wikipedia since they do not answer my questions.

You are dishonest in that you claim to have valid objections to evolution, but you have simply been playing a "just asking questions" game, which was really an expression of your own god of the gaps theology. You even admitted to holding intelligent design beliefs(here) before you finally slipped a bit of anthropomorphizing in one of your strings of rhetorical questions, revealing your own irrational beliefs and the real underlying cause of your skepticism(see here).
You have also repeatedly posted objections to, and baseless assertions about evolution as claims made by others, then not stuck around to address the evidence. You have repeatedly responded with more questions, trying to find a gap of knowledge in which you can place your deity of choice. Needless to say, this has been incredibly dishonest.

Originally Posted by questor

You have finally gotten down to the level of enzymatic reactions but these are molecules which need something to motivate their activity. Every link you have posted gives reactions which must have some causal factor. Do you know what that factor is?
None of the biochemical molecules have a brain, so what causes their activity?

The laws of physics and chemistry govern the behavior of biological molecules such as monomers, polymers etc. Again, you are implying that some personality or "intelligence" must be behind all of this, which is both incorrect and dishonest.
These fallacies were all covered in the previous links, which like most of the other information contradicting your belief in this thread, you have conveniently ignored.

Look at where the argument has lead; every objection has had a scientific response given, and your last hold out--- the last gap you could fill with your supernatural deity-- is that the behavior of molecules is governed by physical laws.
Here is your answer: evolution does not explain the laws of physics or chemistry. The scientific field of physics explains the laws of physics, and how physical bodies, large and small behave and interact.
And I know you said not to link to wiki anymore(would it kill you to spend an afternoon on wiki, instead of browsing conspiracy theory websites that simply validate your religious presumptions?) but here is the page on biophysics:
Biophysics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Moontanman]

One of the saddest things about our information based civilization is that no matter how strange your beliefs or what you need to be true to support your beliefs you can always find someone who shares them and is will to pat your back and tell you what you want to believe. This flaw in our info society can be seen on the nightly news where if you disagree with what one news anchor says you can always change the channel to another whose slant is more to your liking. If you need to believe that alien hybrids are running the United Nations you can find a web site to confirm your fears, if you believe that that there are UFOs filling the sky's you can find a site that agrees. If you need to pick apart a scientific theory with out any real evidence you can always find someone who to fill that need. Creationists need to feel like god is in control and that the natural world proves this. they are wrong, they have been wrong since the Earth was shown to be spherical instead of flat and that Earth orbits around the sun. If you need to believe the Earth is 6000 years old you can find a dim wit to confirm those beliefs. conversely if you are strong enough to want the Truth unvarnished by belief you can find it as well. If you want to believe the Creator has his hand in every cell division that occurs on the Earth you are welcome to that belief. Just remember that belief has never and will never change reality. if you want to believe in god please do so but when you try to allow that belief to dictate what is true and what is false independent of reality then you are doing your self , and your god a disservice, hopefully he will forgive your insult.

[Essay]

Originally Posted by questor

None of the biochemical molecules have a brain, so what causes their activity?

THERMODYNAMICS!

or....
As Galapagos said:
"The laws of physics and chemistry govern the behavior of biological molecules such as monomers, polymers etc."

...and as I pointed out earlier, thermodynamics is the framework relating physics to chemistry,
...much as evolution is the framework which relates chemistry to biology.

~

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by questor

You have finally gotten down to the level of enzymatic reactions but these are molecules which need something to motivate their activity. Every link you have posted gives reactions which must have some causal factor. Do you know what that factor is?
None of the biochemical molecules have a brain, so what causes their activity?

I admit Questor we have been kind of rude, we have bombarded you with information right and left but we haven't given you a chance to tell what your views are, what do you think the motivates this activity, what is the casual factor? Do you have a hypothesis?

[questor]

Moon, yes, some have been rude, but that shows a lack of understanding and knowledge. I have explained my views before, but here I go again. I do not believe in Gods. I do not believe in church dogma. I do believe that the answers to life, evolution, thought and reason lie somewhere below the molecular level and can be explained by understanding the force or impetus that causes carbon compounds to act as they do. Galapagos does not understand this question and he thinks his numerous links have answered it. He wants to throw names and insults around instead of confront the fact that we do not know. I have read his links and the questions remain unanswered. I am not religious, but I do think the universe has intelligent design. If not, how could there be order, orbiting, gravity, physical forces, evolution, and the universe itself? There should have been chaos if there was a big bang and we would not exist. This indicates to me that some type of planning has occurred. I do not know how to explain it.
I believe in cause and effect. everything has a cause. Once you determine the cause, you may be able to create the effect. Once we understand molecular or particulate biochemistry, we may be able to create life itself. Although we have made self replicating compounds, we have not created life.
If you take a soup of elements neccesary to make life and hit them with electricity, you may create replicating cells, but what else is needed to create life? read the
[quote] Miller/Urey Experiment
''By the 1950s, scientists were in hot pursuit of the origin of life. Around the world, the scientific community was examining what kind of environment would be needed to allow life to begin. In 1953, Stanley L. Miller and Harold C. Urey, working at the University of Chicago, conducted an experiment which would change the approach of scientific investigation into the origin of life.
Miller took molecules which were believed to represent the major components of the early Earth's atmosphere and put them into a closed system.
These discoveries created a stir within the science community. Scientists became very optimistic that the questions about the origin of life would be solved within a few decades. This has not been the case, however. Instead, the investigation into life's origins seems only to have just begun.[<quote]

Has this specific question been answered? No. So, actually we must understand the nature of life and at what particulate level it resides in order to answer all the questions of evolution. We have not answered the question of what bottom line motivating force dictates the activity of the chemistry of carbon compounds.
We don't know, and the scientists don't know regardless of their consensus.

[questor]

Essay, you want to discuss thermodynamics and you quoted Galapagos:
''As Galapagos said:
"The laws of physics and chemistry govern the behavior of biological molecules such as monomers, polymers etc."
This is an incorrect statement. A law DESCRIBES behavior, it does not initiate it.
What is it that you want to say about the role of thermodynamics in evolution?

[Moontanman]

[quote]

Originally Posted by questor

Moon, yes, some have been rude, but that shows a lack of understanding and knowledge. I have explained my views before, but here I go again. I do not believe in Gods. I do not believe in church dogma. I do believe that the answers to life, evolution, thought and reason lie somewhere below the molecular level and can be explained by understanding the force or impetus that causes carbon compounds to act as they do. Galapagos does not understand this question and he thinks his numerous links have answered it. He wants to throw names and insults around instead of confront the fact that we do not know. I have read his links and the questions remain unanswered. I am not religious, but I do think the universe has intelligent design. If not, how could there be order, orbiting, gravity, physical forces, evolution, and the universe itself? There should have been chaos if there was a big bang and we would not exist. This indicates to me that some type of planning has occurred. I do not know how to explain it.
I believe in cause and effect. everything has a cause. Once you determine the cause, you may be able to create the effect. Once we understand molecular or particulate biochemistry, we may be able to create life itself. Although we have made self replicating compounds, we have not created life.
If you take a soup of elements neccesary to make life and hit them with electricity, you may create replicating cells, but what else is needed to create life? read the

Questor, I honestly do not understand your need to see a motivating force behind chemical reactions. When fluorine encounters hydrogen does it need a motivating force to react? I think not, they react because of the attraction between the atoms and their electron shells. In other words they react because they can. When fluorine encounters neon they do not react because they cannot, not because some outside intelligence won't let them. Organic molecules are the same way, they react because they can they react in the ways they can, not in ways they cannot. Abiogenesis and evolution as well work because the atoms involved can react the ways they do. Reactions that cannot take place do not take place. As the chemical systems become more complex they regulate the reactions but they never cause a reaction that cannot happen. I see no need for an outside motivational force. If we were seeing chemical reactions taking place that could not do so I would concede you have a point but this never happens.

[questor]

Moon, you have to think deeper. Chemical reactions do occur when certain substances contact each other. It's a matter of electron transfer and equlibrium according to individual valences of the combinants. In inorganic chemistry the reaction is spontaneous and occurs immediately upon contact. In organic compounds, the reaction may need a catalyst and/or heat. In living tissue the reactions for genetic replication are timed and seem planned. This is why they say genes contain information. They may occur at a certain time(baldness, puberty, genetic diseases), and under certain conditions. They are not spontaneous and occur with reason. Genetic activity is directed and time sensitive as if someone is controlling the process. It is not random or chaotic. Do a little homework on genetic chemistry and come to your own conclusions. I have never claimed that God has had a part in this and I have never claimed there is a God, but there is a reason.
I do not believe that anyone can answer these biochemistry questions at this time according to what I have read. If an expert can do so, I will abide by the truth.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by questor

Moon, you have to think deeper. Chemical reactions do occur when certain substances contact each other. It's a matter of electron transfer and equlibrium according to individual valences of the combinants. In inorganic chemistry the reaction is spontaneous and occurs immediately upon contact. In organic compounds, the reaction may need a catalyst and/or heat. In living tissue the reactions for genetic replication are timed and seem planned. This is why they say genes contain information. They may occur at a certain time(baldness, puberty, genetic diseases), and under certain conditions. They are not spontaneous and occur with reason. Genetic activity is directed and time sensitive as if someone is controlling the process. It is not random or chaotic. Do a little homework on genetic chemistry and come to your own conclusions. I have never claimed that God has had a part in this and I have never claimed there is a God, but there is a reason.
I do not believe that anyone can answer these biochemistry questions at this time according to what I have read. If an expert can do so, I will abide by the truth.

I can think quite deeply thank you and I am quite well read, I do not agree with you. If indeed every time an organism was born it had to start from scratch you would almost certainly be correct but all the processes you talk about have been built on less complex processes for literally billions of years. Very little is absolutely new when it comes to life. Almost everything is recycled, what controls a process in organism now was almost certainly used to control something else millions of generations ago. Life uses things over and over to control various aspects of the biochemical process that is life. None of the processes you mention stand alone either now or in the past. All are supported and controlled by other processes. All of these processes can be traced back to simpler and less complex reactions but the line of decent is clear. Simple and complex, theses two concepts build on each other to produce what you call intelligent control. The reason these things happen is that if they didn't the genes would not be able to reproduce, this is why these processes happen, the genes are part of a positive feed back mechanism that produces the illusion of intelligent control.