Is homosexuality unnatural?

[Hasanuddin]

True, many within society live their lives with as much care as your typical drone or infertile worker. That is very true; some lives appear hardly worth living. To the absolute cynic there is no difference between man and termite. The passing of another human, might seem unimportant as the death of a termite, to these callous few. Even the most famous of the famous of humans (after a couple decades) are as memorable as any individual worker killed when spraying the swarm with insecticide. True all very true. But these are philosophical and metaphysical questions—not scientific ones. Personally I believe that all humans matter, and that because we are sapient and because we possess control over our actions (utilized or not), we therefore matter much more than any lower life form.

Truly, how can you both ask:

I'd also challenge you to explain for all of us just how precisely you think human groupings are "different" than swarms of bees, ants, or termites,

When this question posed is it suggested that there are gay termites? That would be an interesting paper to read. I guess with that one question, i.e., bringing things back to the topic sinks your ship. How can you claim that termites are the same as humans when termites do not have documented gay members. For that matter, in a society of infertile semi-clone automatons… do they even have straight sex? Do the drones sneak off with attractive workers? Are the workers?

As far as the second part of the question in concerned

… and how cloning has anything whatsoever to do with societal groupings.

The question goes back to sex again. Do clones have sex within a hive? If a clone has sex with another would it be called gay sex or masterbation? But then comes the other problem with linking a clone-network with human society. Are humans automatom clones? Again, another philosophical question. To the absolute cynic, we are all expendable, interchangeable, and of minimal worth. Although I too believe these things to be true (just look at my signature) I also believe that we each contain our own individual, unique, and important contribution to the overall metaphysical life-matrix. Regardless, because of both sex (or lack of) and metaphysical potential termite society/individuals do not align.

[Michaelangelica]

Certainly gay bees who dance with others

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by Hasanuddin

When this question posed is it suggested that there are gay termites? That would be an interesting paper to read.

No. Your response completely ignores the context in which the comment was made. You suggested that humans were different than all other animals because we have societies. This was shown false by use of examples. You then conceded that these animals had societies, but that they were different because they were clones. You were then asked how cloning has any relevance to the concept of societal grouping.

How you go from that to asking whether I intended to suggest there were gay termites is absolutely beyond me.

[Larv]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Certainly gay bees who dance with others

Technically speaking, worker bees are the ones who do the dancing, and they are females. So, in the case of bee hives, worker bees are the ersatz lesbians who care more about socializing and less about reproducing. Furthermore, I've never heard of sex occurring between two worker bees, maybe because they're too busy working . (Personally, I'd rather be a male drone who lops around the hive all day and mates endlessly with the queen.)

[Hasanuddin]

Sorry to tell you Larv, but you're going to be a pretty hard-up little drone. Though you might fantasize about lazy days hanging around the hive doing nothing but bopping with the queen, but that is not the case. The queen only mates in midair, and she only wants to mate with drones from other hives. So basically, your whole life would be spent flying high with your glands ready on search for the chance whiff of a virgin queen. Quite a lot of drones are produced each year to make up for their low probability of finding a virgin queen. However, if you do come across a virgin queen, stand in line… she’s a horny who’. She can do up to 40 drones in one flight out. (Now there’s a queen on the town!) So basically the life of a drone is an endless wandering looking for a virgin for seconds of fun… Being a drone doesn’t sound like a good job to me.

(I'd much rather be born a queen, rather than a drone... she gets to go make several sex-flights and still be considered a virgin. The wish of all single queens.)

For honey bee queens, multiple mating makes a difference
What's Buzzzin'? Virign Queen Mating Areas and DCAs

Back to the original question "Is being gay natural?" To that question I have repeated brought up the notion of codominance. Could it be that the genes leading to the expression of the gay phenotype (a very complex phenotype indicating multiple genes influencing on different level) also have secondary phonotypical displays of an advantageous trait (creativity has bee advanced) that is of ultimate value to society?

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by Hasanuddin

Back to the original question "Is being gay natural?" To that question I have repeated brought up the notion of codominance. Could it be that the genes leading to the expression of the gay phenotype (a very complex phenotype indicating multiple genes influencing on different level) also have secondary phonotypical displays of an advantageous trait (creativity has bee advanced) that is of ultimate value to society?

Yes... Absolutely. Many of my earlier contributions to this thread demonstrated exactly that, along with numerous examples of how.

[Miranda]

Originally Posted by Hasanuddin

Back to the original question "Is being gay natural?" To that question I have repeated brought up the notion of codominance. Could it be that the genes leading to the expression of the gay phenotype (a very complex phenotype indicating multiple genes influencing on different level) also have secondary phonotypical displays of an advantageous trait (creativity has bee advanced) that is of ultimate value to society?

Just a side question: are behavioral traits correlated with genetic traits? Is there an 'angry' gene, or an 'outgoing' gene? I didn't think there were but I could be wrong...

[Larv]

Originally Posted by Miranda

Just a side question: are behavioral traits correlated with genetic traits? Is there an 'angry' gene, or an 'outgoing' gene? I didn't think there were but I could be wrong...

I don't think a gay genotype has ever been identified, so this makes it tricky to talk about a "gay phenotype."

[InfiniteNow]

To make things clear for our readers, there really don't tend to be single genes for a set of behaviors. There is no "gay gene" or "angry gene." There are collections of genes which all contribute to behaviors, but genetics DO absolutely have a huge influence on behaviors, all the same.

Again, I shared much of this information myself already earlier in the thread (specific to homosexuality and genetics).

[Hasanuddin]

Dear InfiniteNow,

Let me hone what you just stated, "science has yet to identify an angry gene or a gay gene." That statement is correct. The oversimplification in post 179

There is no "gay gene" or "angry gene."

is incorrect, i.e., not 100% certain by any measure. Actually there is definite suggestion that genes and demeanor are related. All one need do is look at breeds of dogs. Anyone who knows anything about dogs knows that certain breeds have certain temperaments. There is actually a lot of exciting gene research going on right now within and between purebreds.

When I started on this thread I brought up the fact that there have been researchers racing to find some sort of gay-gene (or set of genes) for a very long time, e.g:
1]D. H. Hamer et al, "A Linkage Between DNA Markers on the X-chromosome and Male Sexual Orientation," Science (1993), 261, no. 5119, pp. 321-27.
[2]"Research Points Toward a Gay Gene," Wall Street Journal, 16 July 1993.

I also entered this thread making the personal prayer that researchers never do “succeed” in the quest of genetically understanding homosexuality. Why? Because if medical procedures can spot this “condition” then the choice to abort could be made based on fear-bias homophobia.