Is homosexuality unnatural?

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by lemit

While nature or the lack thereof as it relates to sexual orientation is the text of the title, the subtext of the thread is certainly discrimination. With all the permutations of nature, nurture, and a few forces we don't quite understand, it would seem that the best course would be a certain legal and moral modesty.

So, a parallel question: Is discrimination based on homosexuality unnatural?

--lemit

Being the father of a gay son I'm not sure I can be objective about discrimination against homosexuals. I know my son is a good man and I see no reason what so ever why he should be discriminated against what so ever. He has endured the exclusion perpetrated by the so called straight community, been denied a ROTC scholarship after they insisted he sign a document saying he was not homosexual even though he was rated at the top of his ROTC class, he has been denied jobs and even beaten several times by men who thought he had no right to even exist. Through it all he has maintained his humanity and dignity. I think discrimination against homosexuals is based entirely in the supernatural and so being is by definition unnatural.

[Cedars]

I had stayed out of this thread until just today because of the politics/emotion involved, for some people. But as I reviewed things in the background (and as I stated via multiple forums where this topic keeps arising) I immediately encountered misrepresentation of what the science was stating and what the various posters were presenting. It is often claimed we dont spend enough time viewing the news with the eye of a skeptic, yet within hours of my posts, attempts are made to derail the topic and my legitimate questions regarding what the news presents as fact and what I was finding as exaggeration of fact or speculation.

Here is a lengthy snippet from one of the pdf links:

"We mainly focus on same-sex behavior per se, without inferring anything about the sexual preference or orientation of individuals engaging in the behavior. Sexual behavior, sexual preference and sexual orientation are distinct but often conflated concepts (see Glossary).

Confusion among them can undermine the clarity and accurate interpretation of scientific research, so here we emphasize that same-sex sexual behaviors are interactions between same-sex individuals that also occur between opposite-sex individuals in the context of reproduction. For example, many Drosophila studies examine genetic mutations that affect pheromone receptors (Box 1). Sex-specific pheromones and their accurate detection are crucial for sex recognition in fruit flies, and alterations in sex-recognition pathways can produce males that court other males, females that court females, or males that switch from same-sex to opposite-sex courtship within minutes [4– 13]. In other words, the mutations cause same-sex sexual behavior. However, this behavior often occurs alongside opposite-sex courtship as well, with males mating indiscriminately [8,10,11]. So although they show same-sex sexual behavior, males might not actually be exhibiting a preference for one sex over the other (see Box 1).

Individuals exhibiting a same-sex preference choose to engage in sexual behavior with a member of the same sex, when given the option of engaging in sexual behavior with an opposite-sex individual. Preference implies that the animal has made a choice. Examples of same-sex preferences in non-human animals are far more rare than examples of same-sex behavior. Nevertheless, in the damselfly Ischnura elegans, researchers demonstrated that males exposed to all-male groups preferentially courted other males when they were given a choice between a male and a female [14]. Their preference for one sex over the other was flexible, and could be switched by manipulating the social context they experienced previously [14].

Same-sex orientation implies a more permanent set of preferences—an internal predisposition to desire sexual interactions with members of one sex or another—and although commonly used to describe sexual identity in humans (see Glossary), it is rarely applied to other animals. In part, this is because it is impossible to know what animals ‘desire’; we can only observe what they do. Individuals in a handful of vertebrate species have been described as having same-sex orientations, among them male chinstrap penguins (Pygoscelis antarcticus), which have been documented to form long-term pair bonds in captivity [15], and some male bighorn sheep (Ovis canadensis), which will only mount females if the females adopt male-like behavior [16]. Categorizing an individual animal’s orientation is fraught with the added difficulty of not knowing for how long an animal must retain its sexual preference to be considered same- versus opposite sex oriented. Considering sexual orientation using this set of criteria is likely of limited use to biologists studying same-sex behavior in non-human animals."

If I remember right, the above article was printed before the chinstrap penguin couples had broken up and one of the couple mated with a female.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Cedars

I had stayed out of this thread until just today because of the politics/emotion involved, for some people. But as I reviewed things in the background (and as I stated via multiple forums where this topic keeps arising) I immediately encountered misrepresentation of what the science was stating and what the various posters were presenting. It is often claimed we dont spend enough time viewing the news with the eye of a skeptic, yet within hours of my posts, attempts are made to derail the topic and my legitimate questions regarding what the news presents as fact and what I was finding as exaggeration of fact or speculation.

with all due respect, bs. you are anti-gay, your many posts on the topic make it clear that you are anti-gay, and i have no intention of letting that aspect slide for you or anyone else with your slant.

[Moontanman]

To some extent I do agree with you Cedars, claiming incidence of homosexuality in non-sentient creatures as unnatural seems to be a stretch to me. Same sex behavior in flies, lizards with only one sex, and fish with the same population of one sex or even fish that routinely change sex is obviously natural. These animals do and and cannot question the way they are made. Even bonobos do not in any way display any discrimination against or toward members who engage in same sex act or even sex acts with their children. as far as I have seen only humans question such behaviors or try to categorize them as unnatural or natural. The gist of the conversation is the idea that same sex sexual acts are some how unnatural. l think that is is obvious that humans have coined the idea of natural and unnatural based on the supernatural. We are not equipped to make a neutral call on this due to our own reliance on the supernatural for guidance. since only humans can make the call of natural or unnatural the idea can only apply to humans. The penguins in question are obviously in an unnatural situation much like humans in prison, if men in prison who are having same sex acts with each other are offered woman most would choose women, does this mean the sex was an artifact of the captivity or an expression of a natural urge to have sex with men? All creatures are programmed to have sex at some point, in non sentient creatures there is no natural or unnatural, there is just sex. the reason for sexual contact is not always reproduction in most animals I think this says that same sex contacts are natural. the only unnatural aspect of this is our categorization of sex acts.

[lemit]

Sex acts, sexual behavior, and sexual orientation are three separate things. I missed a few twists and turns in the conversation and probably agreed with some people I don't agree with. I believe it's unnatural to discriminate based on orientation. The question of practices has little bearing. I think that's where we get lost.

My great uncle lived with his partner 30 very peaceful and productive years, until the partner's death. That is the separation of orientation from practice. Sleaze comes in all orientations. It should not be used as an excuse to discriminate against sincere, honest, hard-working people like my great uncle.

--lemit

[lemit]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Being the father of a gay son I'm not sure I can be objective about discrimination against homosexuals.

Soooo, you don't think you can meet the high standard of objectivity we've set in this thread?

I for one will miss you. I understand, though. The rest of us are just so damned objective.

--lemit

[Moontanman]

You're such a comedian lemit Since I started this thread I think I'll hang around objective or not. Your uncle is a prime example of why discrimination against homosexuals is so wrong but your remarks about sleaze is where the rubber meets the road. The definition of what is sleazy behavior is for all practical purposes different for each person. It's why we need laws to protect everyone from being persecuted for non criminal behavior. Many people consider any thing but married man on top get it over with quick to be "sleaze" that needs to be stopped. Where do we draw the line? Who decides what is behavior than needs to be stopped or should be allowed?

[lemit]

I was just searching for a simple, resonating term for bad behavior. "Bad behavior" isn't easy to define either.

I don't know how to say what I mean to say. It's just that I think some people misidentify behavior that is actionable as a whole lifestyle.

Really, I think you know what I was trying to say, even though I haven't said it here. We need to find a way of saying what we are trying to say to those people who don't understand. If we can't figure out how to talk to each other, we don't stand much of a chance of being able to talk to those other people.

--lemit

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by lemit

I was just searching for a simple, resonating term for bad behavior. "Bad behavior" isn't easy to define either.

I don't know how to say what I mean to say. It's just that I think some people misidentify behavior that is actionable as a whole lifestyle.

Really, I think you know what I was trying to say, even though I haven't said it here. We need to find a way of saying what we are trying to say to those people who don't understand. If we can't figure out how to talk to each other, we don't stand much of a chance of being able to talk to those other people.

--lemit

You are correct lemit, i have a huge emotional investment in this issue. It's almost impossible for me to tolerate anyone who is intolerant of homosexuals. i have always been a very tolerant person about most things but this issue hits very close to home, I love my son very much!

[Turtle]

i love emit & his luncle; they crack me up too mooman. but like you, i can not get past that the very continuance of these characterizations of gay as a disease is hurting people. from teasing, to job discrimination, to beatings and to murder, all on account of characteristics completely out of an individual's control. moreover it's not simply a united states problem, or an iran problem where there are no gays, but it's a wordlwide problem. it's liberty deprived unjustly.

Hated to Death | Human Rights Watch

... IV.BACKGROUND...
HIV/AIDS in Jamaica
Homophobia in Jamaica and its role in driving the HIV/AIDS epidemic
V.FINDINGS OF HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH'S INVESTIGATION...
Police abuse
Police abuse based on sexual orientation and gender identity
Police abuse of sex workers
Police interference with access to HIV/AIDS information and health services
Abuses in the health care system...
Discrimination by health care providers
Discrimination in health care provision
Inadequate protection of confidential information
Driving men who have sex with men and people living with HIV/AIDS from health care services
Fostering dangerous practices and complicating health care provision
Denial of access to transportation
Other abuses by non-state actors: violence in the family and in the community
Abuses based on sexual orientation and gender identity
Abuses against people living with HIV/AIDS ...