Is homosexuality unnatural?

[lemit]

I'm not sure how, but I'd forgotten about a friend of mine who committed suicide in the '70's after his partner was beaten to death in San Francisco by a mob shouting "Kill the fag!"

My friend was in his thirties and left behind several books on the history of photography in the American West, from William Henry Jackson to Edweard Muybridge. I'm credited in at least one of his books.

I also live where Matthew Shepard died, for a more up-to-date reference. About half of the information I have posted about gay life and opinions has come from rural and small town Wyoming and Colorado, from friends who trusted me although they had no reason to. I feel honored that they felt safe around me.

Oh, also, I live a couple miles from the church of a minister who spends his life "anointing" public buildings against the stain of homosexuality.

I have a feeling that the people who are capable of killing because of sexual orientation are still out there. The subject is so emotionally charged that many people could turn violent with a few drinks in them, as Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson did.

This post has little to do with the naturalness or unnaturalness of homosexuality, and more to do with the unnaturalness of heterosexuals and their self-righteousness. Sorry, our self-righteousness. It's not always pleasant to be associated with the majority.

--lemit

[Cedars]

Originally Posted by lemit

This post has little to do with the naturalness or unnaturalness of homosexuality, and more to do with the unnaturalness of heterosexuals and their self-righteousness. Sorry, our self-righteousness. It's not always pleasant to be associated with the majority.

--lemit

And this is a problem across several topics. This is a problem in several arenas. Wilson was rude when he shouted out "you lie" but Carter was wrong to label it 'racism'. I was listening to the same speech and clearly remember the claim of "not raise the deficit" and thinking "thats a lie". I thought "thats a lie" with Bush and his tax cuts to the wealthy being a good thing for me (and my taxes went up when they took away head of household) and I thought "thats a lie" with Clinton and NAFTA. I mean seriously, how many of you are tired of Sharpton or Jackson labeling everything that doesnt meet their agenda as 'racism'.

Newspapers who label some of these animals as 'homosexual' are wrong. I cant say the researchers are wrong because most of them are not labeling the behavior as homosexual (though I have not read the Bruce Bagemihl book, the most often quoted reference). What I have read (of research papers) always cautions against equating these behaviors with human orientations.

But the reality of the situation is tossed aside and allegations are posted against anyone who is skeptical of the claims made in the news sites. Yet the context of the posts is left undisputed.

The penguins. I remember reading about them and never thinking, "they should be separated, thats horrible". I do remember thinking "I wonder how fundamentalists will explain this to their kids when they visit these zoos". I also guessed extreme fundies would not visit the zoos to avoid having to discuss the issue. Sound familiar? We cant even discuss these issues here in a science site, as grown ups without the conversation being dragged down into name calling and personal attacks (note very few posters are guilty of this).

But then, the MM penguins was before I found out about sex ratio bias and didnt know several of these pairing dissolved when the bias was removed/reduced.

The penguins. When I read there was an outburst from gay advocates who insist the zoo not introduce new females to the pen (note the zoo was not going to separate the MM penguins), and outcry also occurred in san fran cal with their MM paired penguins and the plan to balance the sex ratio, I was angered. How dare they support an unnatural condition (remember the studies of FF pairings of gulls being during sex ratio bias). I mean, do you agree that this sex ratio bias should be continued to artificially induce a situation where social creatures have no option as with these penguins? Are you comfortable with calling these situations (captive penguins with sex ratio bias) behavior science?

[Moontanman]

For all practical purposes I think all animal behavior in captive situations is suspect. Not wanting to add females to the penguin group to preserve the MM pairs is just plain silly. Only humans categorizes same sex behavior as anything but sex, our own categorization of sex is what is unnatural not the sex acts themselves.

[freeztar]

This article seems appropriate.

"...Because I’m a biologist, I started asking myself some difficult questions. My discipline teaches that homosexuality is some sort of anomaly. But if the purpose of sexual contact is just reproduction, as Darwin believed, then why do all these gay people exist? A lot of biologists assume that they are somehow defective, that some developmental error or environmental influence has misdirected their sexual orientation. If so, gay and lesbian people are a mistake that should have been corrected a long time ago. But this hasn’t happened. That’s when I had my epiphany. When scientific theory says something’s wrong with so many people, perhaps the theory is wrong, not the people.”

The resulting book, Evolution’s Rainbow, was an audacious attack on Darwin’s theory of sexual selection. To make her case, Roughgarden filled the text with a staggering collection of animal perversities, from the penises of female spotted hyenas to the mènage à trois tactics of bluegill sunfish. As Roughgarden put it, “What’s coming out [in the past 10-15 years] is to the rest of the species what the Kinsey Report was to humans.”

The Gay Animal Kingdom § SEEDMAGAZINE.COM

The article states that over 450 different vertebrate species practice homosexual sex. That sounds pretty natural to me.

I share your concern, Cedars, of how this translates to humans, but many cases show that it's not dependent upon bias. It happens in healthy populations in the wild.

[mynah]

It would probably be appropriate to refer to animal sexual behaviour as flexible, rather than "natural" or "unnatural". Some of the things my dogs get up to would be regarded as plain perverse if humans indulged in the same. I would, however, not call it unnatural in animals - especially as this behaviour sometimes took place with an intact female present.

[modest]

I thought this was funny,

Some scientists have interpreted same-sex pairing as anything but sex. In a study of giraffes in Africa a researcher registered all cases where a male sniffed a female as “sexual interest” – while anal intercourse with ejaculation between males was registered as a form of ritualised fighting

Against nature? - Naturhistorisk Museum

-source

~modest

[Larv]

Originally Posted by modest

I thought this was funny,

Against nature? - Naturhistorisk Museum

-source

~modest

Why do you suppose the male gariffe on the receiving end of anal intercourse stood still for it? Did it relieve his constipation? Or did it just feel good?

[Cedars]

Originally Posted by freeztar

This article seems appropriate.
The Gay Animal Kingdom § SEEDMAGAZINE.COM

The article states that over 450 different vertebrate species practice homosexual sex. That sounds pretty natural to me.

I share your concern, Cedars, of how this translates to humans, but many cases show that it's not dependent upon bias. It happens in healthy populations in the wild.

Searching the internet, I cannot access one original source of Joan Roughgarden. All this is, relates to my original postings about news source headlines vs what the study actually says. I cannot independently confirm or deny the authors interpretation of the source data.

Evolution's Rainbow by Joan Roughgarden

He says that she says. My investigations into various claims have not produced the evidence of homosexuality that the headlines imply.

Heres what a google scholar search on the keywords presented in this article reveal:
"male big horn sheep" and "homosexual societies" - Google Scholar

Keyword sentence "Male big horn sheep live in what are often called “homosexual societies.”

Define often I guess would be the question to ask next.

If you have a link to the actual articles, rather than the interpretation of her articles, I will read them. I have searched for giraffes and lions also and so far, its all a news source says she/he/they say (giraffe references all reflect back to one study in the 50s and another in the 60s, so far, on one or two separate populations of giraffee, one of which I believe was an isolated example (isolated by desert)). Two different sources but again, the actual content is unavailable online as far as I have been able to access. Birds presented the most data and as posted, its reproduction by researchers is caused by sex ratio bias (in gulls/several species) and is also noted in the wild to be present during sex ratio bias periods.

Does one of the 450 vertebrate species include the captive penguins? Do you include the captive penguins as practicing homosexual sex? (these particular penguins (chinstrap) are one of the birds which M/F are not easily ID'd in the field).

Unnatural conditions create unnatural reactions. Or maybe The natural reaction to this unnatural condition.

[modest]

Originally Posted by Larv

Why do you suppose the male gariffe on the receiving end of anal intercourse stood still for it? Did it relieve his constipation? Or did it just feel good?

I’d love to be able to tell you that the giraffe that was catching was genuinely interested in the giraffe that was pitching—that he was charmed by the pitcher’s foreign accent and attracted to his well-chiseled jaw and dark penetrating eyes. But, we both know that’s not the case. In actual fact, the catcher felt obligated to give it up after the pitcher treated him an expensive steak and lobster dinner at the local watering hole and took him to his favorite meerkat opera. The pitcher did not have a chiseled jaw and his accent was atrocious—sounded something like a water buffalo giving birth crossed with a dying Bobcat (the comedian, not the animal).

Yeah... if I had to guess the giraffe’s motivation for receiving anal sex it would probably be pity and a feeling of obligation. But, I guess I wouldn’t rule out your suggestion that he is seeking relief from an awful case of constipation.

~modest

[lemit]

Originally Posted by Cedars

And this is a problem across several topics. This is a problem in several arenas. Wilson was rude when he shouted out "you lie" but Carter was wrong to label it 'racism'. I was listening to the same speech and clearly remember the claim of "not raise the deficit" and thinking "thats a lie". I thought "thats a lie" with Bush and his tax cuts to the wealthy being a good thing for me (and my taxes went up when they took away head of household) and I thought "thats a lie" with Clinton and NAFTA. I mean seriously, how many of you are tired of Sharpton or Jackson labeling everything that doesnt meet their agenda as 'racism'.

If I remember right, Jimmy Carter qualified his comments about Joe Wilson by reminding listeners that he had spent his whole life in the South, had known people like Joe Wilson all his life, and knew that racism was generally a factor in their inability to behave as civilly toward a black person as they would toward a white person. I think I got that right, and I think that shows an expertise I have an infinitesmal portion of from working 30 years in Civil Rights. When a Nobel Peace Prize laureate who is known as one of the great statesmen in the world speaks harshly, we should listen. When that Nobel Laureate speaks from his own experience of more than eighty years, we should listen very carefully. Jimmy Carter does not have a reputation for sudden, off-the-cuff outbursts (as his well-couched remarks have since been characterized). Joe Wilson's outburst was racist. Get used to it and get over it.

This is not as off-topic as it seems. The world is changing. Some people will be comfortable with having Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House of Representatives, Charles Rangel as Chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, and Barney Frank as Chairman of the House Banking Committee. Some won't.

A woman, a black, and a gay carry concealed weapons into a bar. Sorry, that's another thread.

A woman, a black, and a gay are effectively running the House of Representatives. To the people who believe a Congressman should look and sound like that Marlboro Man, John Boehner, the world already has gone to Hell in a handbasket.

To have this ongoing conversation about whether the life--not the lifestyle, the life--of the Chairman of the House Banking Committee poses an afront to nature is just plain absurd. But we don't seem to be able to avoid that conversation, because when any of us suggests persons of different sexual orientations are merely following completely natural impulses, we are sure to hear somebody shouting "You lie!"

--lemit