Evolution vs Religion

[Tormod]

For those wanting to catch up, the chapter in mention is Chapter 6 in Darwin's book "On The Origin of Species".

The full text of the book is available at Project Gutenberg, here:
http://www.gutenberg.net/etext98/otoos11.txt

Tormod

[OpenMind5]

Tormod...earlier you said the disscussion of God and his exsistance does not belong in this area.."Evolution" I beg to Differ...If u think there is a god...then u also belive that he was the devine intereventions or the creator, therefore he belongs everywhere because he is the beginning and the end...the alpha and the omgea...If u read the bible u will hear that...and bout my mind being open...it is...while it may not in this case is because GOD is the creator of my mind and i have no dout in that...Darwin's findings were also rejected not olny by churches at times, but later on rejected by darwin himself...beacuse he became a christain...or at least i heard this....I have read most of this book, and disagree with some of it...but what i wanna know is...where do u stand...is there a god Tormod?
OP5-(as u have dubed me) ***excuse all spelling***

[Tormod]

Dear OP5 (I thought it was nice nick...almost like ObiWan... )

First of all: Darwin was always a Christian, although his father (also Charles) who was more of a skeptic. Darwin was baptised as an Anglican. He may not have been the most devout follower of the Christian faith but I think there is no reason to doubt that he believed in God. He did, however. not renouce his own work (why would he?). Where did you find this information?

The existence of any god has nothing to do with the discussion of evolution as a theory. To maintain that there is a god is fine, but to begin to argue *whether* there is one is off topic. Do you see the distinction in that? "Does god exist" is a question for the Philosophy section.

If you have followed these forums for a while you will know that I am an atheist. I can also say that I have always been an atheist. I have no belief in any superior being, and that mankind is part of a grand vision.

I respect people who are religious - no matter which religion they belong to. Americans tend to see evertyhing from a Christian point of view. But we should remember that most people in this world are not Christians but belong to different faiths or have no faith. They will all have different takes on what evolution is.

The topic "Evolution vs religion" is therefore very strange: it usually turns into a debate of whether one thinks there is a god or not. And so it is with this one, too: none of you have provided any problems with evolutionary theory, you have simply stated that "this must be wrong".

I ask, what is wrong and why. Which theory. Which part of it. Why is it against the bible. Would it be possible that it might be correct even though the bible states something else. Could the apparent differences have something to do with the bible being a very old book and evolutionary theory quite new , relatively? And try to forget "darwinism" for a moment and think "evolution", which as many of us have pointed out is more correct. These are issues which belong in this thread.

By the way: In Norway religion (read: Christian studies) is compulsory in primary and secondary school, and I also had a year at a college of education which had a compulsory course in religion. I have read the bible, yes.

I have many views on the bible but they do not belong here. I have also read the apocrypha, the dead sea scrolls and commentaries on the bible. I have several Christian friends and we accept our differences. I wish I had some friends of other faiths, as well - I know too little about Islam and would like to read the Koran, and will, when time allows.

So there you go. My views on evolution have been stated several times, no need to retrace those here.

Perhaps I should add that there is no such thing as a truly open mind. Anyone who thinks their mind is open is wrong. Yes, that goes for myself as well. We are all children of our parents, upbringing, environment, friends, politics and interests. We may believe we are free to think and do as we like, but that is true fiction. And THAT is a topic which is WAY off topic here...but maybe someone would take it up in the Philosphy section.

Tormod

[TINNY]

comprehensive site on islam - www.islamic-world.net

some christians believe that life started about 4004 BC. If evolution was to occur, surely it cannot evolve till this present state in that short time span.

Darwin was born a christian, destined for life with the church after graduating from cambridge in christiany studies. then became an atheist, died an atheist. i read from a book - 'Darwin-A life in science'.

[Tormod]

I myself cannot count myself a master of the life of Charles Darwin, but I have read several books about and by him, so I would say that while he started out as a regular and not very passionate Christian, he ended up an agnostic and perhaps even an atheist in the end, yes.

Here is a quote from him on that issue:

"I am aware that the conclusions arrived at in this work will be denounced by some as highly irreligious; but he who denounces them is bound to show why it is more irreligious to explain the origin of man as a distinct species by descent from some lower from, through the laws of variation and natural selection, than to explain the birth of the individual through the laws of ordinary reproduction. The birth both of the species and of the individual are equally parts of that grand sequence of events, which our minds refuse to accept as the result of blind chance." (Charles Darwin, Descent of Man)
Taken from http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/darwin.htm

And I think that is exactly the point some of us is trying to make - in discussing evolution, a lot of people simply say "it did not happen because everything was made by God". For my part, I accept that evolution is a grand mystery which makes life on earth, and the history of our planet, extremely interesting. I do not attempt to say that I understand it or can explain all of it.

Tormod

[Tormod]

That quote should say "lower form" and not "lower from" - error in the original quote.

I think it is interesting to note that Darwin saw Man as a "higher" form than, say, apes. On this issue I think it would be fair to discuss the meaning of "higher".

Tormod

[TINNY]

possibly God created chance, and so the creation of man by chance is also by god. but that's from our materialistic perspective, but from god's perspective, that's how God intended it to be, God did not accidently create man unexpectedly.

[Majed]

To get evolution you need the first life and that is a problem. To get the first living cell then it has to do the following form the start:

1- To be able to survive the harsh weather.
2- To be able to get it food form the surounding environment and absorb it.
3- To be able to trasnfer the food to energy.
4- To get dispose the wast.
5- To multiply or split to two.

I have those form memory but they were oringanly mentioned in a book called the blue print of a cell.
To get this to happen instanly is like having win blowing buy a junkyard and bits and peices of it start creating a a 747 plan ready to fly.

If we can prove that life can start instantly then God is not needed. If not then we should not doupt the idea that he created man in full form rather evolve him form an ape as Darwin clames .

[Tormod]

Majed - welcome to our forums.

Your line of arguments has a major flaw: there is no evidence that life started out as a cell. It took many, many years (like 1,3 billion years) from the first organic compounds turned into something as advanced as cells.

This is a site full of clever articles:
http://www.onelife.com/evolve/cellev.html

Here is a good introduction to evolution in general, albeit a bit basic:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/evolution.htm

Tormod

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: TINNY
possibly God created chance, and so the creation of man by chance is also by god. but that's from our materialistic perspective, but from god's perspective, that's how God intended it to be, God did not accidently create man unexpectedly.

And here we have the "god of the gaps".

First the claim was made that god created everything and is responsible for everything that happens. Then we learned that lightning is an electrical discharge, thunder made by air molecules, that the sun and stars are balls of gas, ... Each time SCIENCE has replaced religious superstition with REAL KNOWLEDGE, there is another restructuring of what god is, trying to fill the gaps of knowledge not yet filled by solid science. The gaps keep getting fewer and smaller. God keeps having less footing as an explanation.

Many of us can easily see this and stop trying to invent reasons to stuff god into a gap. We realize that "I don't know" is not a good reason to stop using logic. And it is definately not an excuse to claim a god exists.