Possible Alien Life

[Boerseun]

The ability to manipulate the environment should be a universal feature of intelligent life. But this does not imply opposable thumbs, although in worked fine for us. And elephant's trunk might serve the same purpose, leaving a four-footed animal which can also manipulate stuff.

But the ability should be universal. Freaky possibilities exist - if a rabbit invested in proper muscle tissue and nerves, it might conceivably use its ears for hands. Tails, etc. might be adapted for this use as well.

[Moontanman]

Maybe intelligent life has a tendency to be humanoid for the same reason fish, sharks, ichthyosaurs, and dolphins are shaped similarly? It could be that intelligence is easier in a humanoid form. Or that the ability to manipulate the environment with technology is easier in humanoid form? Of course when I say humanoid form I don't mean anything we would likely think of as human. I'm sure dolphins don't mistake sharks for dolphins just because both were shaped into a stream lined form by their environment.

Michael

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Maybe intelligent life has a tendency to be humanoid for the same reason fish, sharks, ichthyosaurs, and dolphins are shaped similarly?

But there are many examples of intelligent life that is decidedly *not* humanoid - for example whales.

I think evolution would tend to apply to other things than intelligence, so that intelligence would be a byproduct of evolution, not a measure of it.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Tormod

But there are many examples of intelligent life that is decidedly *not* humanoid - for example whales.

I think evolution would tend to apply to other things than intelligence, so that intelligence would be a byproduct of evolution, not a measure of it.

How do we know whales are intelegent? I did say the ability to use tecnology was the factor that might shape intellegence into humaniod shape. Whales just might be hypergenuises but it doesn't help much when the whaleing ships come around.

Michael

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

How do we know whales are intelegent? I did say the ability to use tecnology was the factor that might shape intellegence into humaniod shape. Whales just might be hypergenuises but it doesn't help much when the whaleing ships come around.

Michael

It doesn't help to defined what requirements there are for intelligence when the people who define the requirements are using their own criteria.

I agree that we don't whether whales are "intelligent", but then we don't really have very good definitions for intelligence - if it is toolmaking, then we're definintely not alone:

Animal Tool Use

If it's "technology", I think we'd need to define that. Bats use natural radars, whales can communicate halfway around the globe using extremely fine-tuned sounds.

When the whaling ships come, I think you'd find that intelligence, or at least instinct, plays a big part when it comes to escaping. One animal being caught is not a sign of lack of intelligence - this is rather a typical sign of flocks and packs, or of good hunting. Humans also fall prey to predators, but you would not use that argument to say humans are not intelligent.

[Boerseun]

I personally like the definition of intelligence as the ability to consume energy extrasomatically. For humans, that would have started with the invention of fire.

Whales can't do it, and can't manipulate their environment.

But they do seem to have communication down to a 'T'.

But besides that, I am happy this thread has been resuscitated, but in defining 'intelligence', we're getting slightly off-topic! We're supposed to be hypothesising on the possible designs and similarities we might find between Earth-life and alien life.

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Tormod

It doesn't help to defined what requirements there are for intelligence when the people who define the requirements are using their own criteria.

I agree that we don't whether whales are "intelligent", but then we don't really have very good definitions for intelligence - if it is toolmaking, then we're definintely not alone:

Animal Tool Use

If it's "technology", I think we'd need to define that. Bats use natural radars, whales can communicate halfway around the globe using extremely fine-tuned sounds.

When the whaling ships come, I think you'd find that intelligence, or at least instinct, plays a big part when it comes to escaping. One animal being caught is not a sign of lack of intelligence - this is rather a typical sign of flocks and packs, or of good hunting. Humans also fall prey to predators, but you would not use that argument to say humans are not intelligent.

You are correct but i don't see whales building weapons to protect themselves from preditors either. Humans manipulate thier environemnt to their own benifit. the radar of bats is not tecnology any more than human eye sight is technology. There is different degrees of technology but I would propose that any animal that obtians tools from it's environemnt by changing a natural object into a tool is using technology. A few other animals do this in a minor way and they deserve credit for it. No other animal does it to the extent humans do. The making of tools is the first step of technology but i think that fire would have to be the next step. We humans have developed the second step to a high level but i'm not sure we have really gone beyond it. I faint memory haunts me from childhood, I read somewhere that the remains of a nonhuman creature that used fire used to live on madigascar. It was an up right lemure but it became extinct when humans invaded the island. i have looked in vain for years to find this information again and failed but i am sure it was not a dream or false memory. If true them we weren't the only uprite animal to get to the second step on this planet. If it was a memory of something I misread it did cause me to come up with the two steps of tecnology idea. Can you think of a third step? Or have we already passed the third step? I am thinking that maybe living on more than one planet is the third step.

Michael

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Boerseun

I personally like the definition of intelligence as the ability to consume energy extrasomatically. For humans, that would have started with the invention of fire.

Whales can't do it, and can't manipulate their environment.

But they do seem to have communication down to a 'T'.

But besides that, I am happy this thread has been resuscitated, but in defining 'intelligence', we're getting slightly off-topic! We're supposed to be hypothesising on the possible designs and similarities we might find between Earth-life and alien life.

You are correct I did side track the thread and i apologize. but do you see what i mean about the humaniod shape being dirived from pressure of intellegence and use of tecnology? Animals are shaped by their environment and their use of it.

Michael

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Boerseun

The ability to manipulate the environment should be a universal feature of intelligent life. But this does not imply opposable thumbs, although in worked fine for us. And elephant's trunk might serve the same purpose, leaving a four-footed animal which can also manipulate stuff.

But the ability should be universal. Freaky possibilities exist - if a rabbit invested in proper muscle tissue and nerves, it might conceivably use its ears for hands. Tails, etc. might be adapted for this use as well.

I don't think that an elephants trunk could ever really be as hands. Only one apendenge would severly handicap the elephant. It couldn't use a spear or a bow, all most all human endevors require two hands to manipulate the tools we use. what use would a hammer be if you couldn't hold the nail with your other hand? try to work a seine with one hand or catch a fish. I know one handed people make out pretty good. i had a cousin who only had one arm and don't think he couldn't manange to do an amazing number of things but he was at a definute disatvantage most of the time and with out objects that were made by two handed people he would have really been in trouble.


Michael

[Boerseun]

True enough, but the ability certainly doesn't imply a humanoid form. For instance, if an octopus ever decides to become intelligent enough to manipulate his environment in a human-like fashion, he'd be way advanced over humans. He can hold four nails and four hammers at once. Yet, at the very root of the tree of life, we share a common ancestor with an octopus. But it is very, very early in the history of life where we share common origins. Imagine how freaky aliens can be, with whom we share nothing!