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Old 11-01-2004   #21 (permalink)
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tell me one beneficial mutation example - if there is

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Originally posted by: Tim_Lou
freethinker is cccccccccccccomin....
Hi Tim. Nice to hear your thinking about me! :-)


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Old 11-01-2004   #22 (permalink)
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tell me one beneficial mutation example - if there is

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Originally posted by: Tim_Lou
imagine we have 3 eyes, one nostril, and your questions would become "But why don't you have 2 eyes? Or why dosen't your friend have 2 nostril?"
Nice job Tim. Very well put.

And a lot shorter than my ramblings!


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Old 11-01-2004   #23 (permalink)
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tell me one beneficial mutation example - if there is

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Originally posted by: BEAKER
I suppose I am; in a way. What I'm really speaking of is ramdom mutations in a system that has no rhyme nor reason; no created structure and no designer; no intellegence at all to it's amazingly intricate and finely tuned appearance.
Tell ya what. Take your favorite monitor. Hold it over the edge on the top of a ten story building and let go of it.

Then ask about the random, unstructured, no designer, no creator, no intellegence effect GRAVITY had on it.

Did it do what I would predict it to do regardless of the random, unstructured, no designer, no creator, no intellegence effect of GRAVITY?

Both Gravity and Evolution have the same set of physical laws to operate in. There is NOTHING random or unstructured about it. Niether needs a designer, creator nor intellegence.


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Old 11-01-2004   #24 (permalink)
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tell me one beneficial mutation example - if there is

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Originally posted by: BEAKER
I do understand the concept. But what defines bad?
Unsuccessful at reproducing and thus not passing that gene on.
Quote:
What "force" has determined that the end result that we see with all it's beauty and gradure shoud be the only version to survive out of the millions of possile varriants?
Fish eating their newborns as fast as the pop out. Rabbits having to eat their own shit to live. babies born with their brains outside of their skull. This is "beauty and gradure"? The most important organ in our body, our brain, located at too high of a center of gravity with little to no real protection. This is intellegence in design? I doubt that there is a single one of us that could not come up with a more beautiful and grandiose vision.
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And that is simple logic.
Simple yes. Logic? Far from it.


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Old 11-01-2004   #25 (permalink)
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tell me one beneficial mutation example - if there is

ffffffffffffinally...
Beaker... dont feel discouraged by freethinker... hes always being critical, thats his style. : )

"Rabbits having to eat their own shit to live"
..........i saw the S word... : \

i hope you can come up with an final answer, Beaker. ; )

hmm.... off-topic.


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Old 11-01-2004   #26 (permalink)
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RE: tell me one beneficial mutation example - if there is

A bit off topic but interesting in light of trying to refute evolution by talking about instant mutations.

There are many examples which are not instant but which have taken tens of thousands, often millions, of years to develop.

Our big brains come at a huge cost for humanity. It is twofold: first, in order for babies to be able to squeeze through the mother's pelvis they need collapsible skulls which means smaller heads which means undeveloped brains. Whereas baby chimps can cling to their mothers within very short periods after their birth, human babies lack even the most basic of survival instincts. And secondly, because it takes so long for the brains to develop and for the individual to acheive sexual maturity, adults have to spend up to 18-20 years of their life bringing up their kids. That is second to none in the animal kingdom.

That our society can survive even though most adults spend more than 1/3rd of their lives tending to the needs of the young is incredible. So there must be some evolutionary advantage to it. Why can a newborn horse stand up after mere minutes, while an infant human takes about 12-18 months to learn to walk? Why can some animals communicate almost immediately after birth, while babies can't utter anything but gurgling for a long time? Because our huge brain capacity takes an enormous toll on our existence. That is the price we pay to be smart. It is not inevitable that humanity will continue to survive with these traits.

Considering we live in a very polluted world where a lot of the margins are crossed (like the level of NOx in the athmosphere, and the level of carbon soaked up in trees, oceans, and rocks) a major volcanic eruption or asteroid impact could easily make life difficult for 20-30 years. If the catastrophe wiped out, say, half the human population, ruined our infrastructure, darkened the skies, and polluted the air - how long would humaity survive? It could be over in a decade. THAT'S what evolution is about. Because suddenly human beings - so excellent at adapting - would no longer be able to adapt because the environment would be too harsh for our kinds.

Some humans would inevitably survive, though, and in a few generations there would probably be no need for the incredible brains. Speech could degenerate. We could grow smaller. We would have no need for advanced technology (and nobody would be around to build it) so we'd have to relearn all the skills from the bottom up - farming, making stone tools, how to kill game for food.

And with that, the human species would no longer be the dominant species on this planet. It would have lasted perhaps a hundred thousand years, out of which perhaps 5,000 were marked by high civilzation. Compare that to the 100 million years of the rule of the dinosaurs. Or the longevity of the crocodile. Or the sea turtle.

In the long run, humans - and the other primates - are not the ones who have been around for too long, and there is really nothing for us to say we would be around for too many more millennia.


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Old 11-01-2004   #27 (permalink)
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RE: tell me one beneficial mutation example - if there is

Quote:
Take your favorite monitor. Hold it over the edge on the top of a ten story building and let go of it.
This would seem a more fitting display of the practical application of evolution in light of the law of entropy.


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Old 11-12-2004   #28 (permalink)
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tell me one beneficial mutation example - if there is

"But why don't you have three eyes? Or why dosen't your friend have only one nostril, (you can of course put any varriation you can imagine into this scenario) and why arn't these types of atributes seen all over the world in greater numbers than those of us who have been fortunate enough to end up "normal"."

Perhaps because if you had three eyes you would have a harder time than a normal person in attracting a mate and would thus tend to have fewer offspring.
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Old 11-12-2004   #29 (permalink)
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tell me one beneficial mutation example - if there is

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Originally posted by: GT(N)T
Perhaps because if you had three eyes you would have a harder time than a normal person in attracting a mate and would thus tend to have fewer offspring.
It didn't help poor Blinky at all!




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Old 11-16-2004   #30 (permalink)
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RE: tell me one beneficial mutation example - if there is

Quote:
Originally posted by: BEAKER
Quote:
Take your favorite monitor. Hold it over the edge on the top of a ten story building and let go of it.
This would seem a more fitting display of the practical application of evolution in light of the law of entropy.
What do you mean?
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