tell me one beneficial mutation example - if there is

[Tim_Lou]

maybe something to do with entropy?

well, the interaction of organisms do not violate the 2nd law of theormdynamics at all, since the sun giving heat to the earth is already a general increases in entropy.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou
the sun giving heat to the earth is already a general increases in entropy.

DECREASES entropy. (or the tendancy to?, which I believe was an extensive discussion previously)

[TeleMad]

Beaker: But why don't you have three eyes? Or why dosen't your friend have only one nostril, (you can of course put any varriation you can imagine into this scenario) and why arn't these types of atributes seen all over the world in greater numbers than those of us who have been fortunate enough to end up "normal". These types of varriations shouldn't be enough to stop the propigation of such mutations, in spite of the deified theory of "survival of the fittest".

Instead we see nothing of the kind.

We don't see anything like that? You can read about many things like that in "Mutants: On Genetic Variety and the Human Body." Here's part of one of the reader's reviews...

”For example, Carl Herman Unthan was a violin virtuoso by age twenty, although he had no arms. Of course, not all such mutants are so successful. Harry Eastlack had a defect that told his body to make bone whenever it made any repair, so that bruises and tears would turn into bone, not healed flesh. The stillborn babies here are strange indeed. One has a second developed mouth in its forehead. Another child was born with over twenty half-developed fetuses in his brain. The book, however, is far from a chamber of horrors. Even the most bizarre of the mutants do show us things about the process of becoming and being a human creature. Conjoined twins, for instance, are closely examined here in many ways for many lessons, like how our developing bodies can know left from right. The deformities in limbs show the importance of embryonic limb-buds, a signaling protein called "sonic hedgehog," and "hox" genes that are the same ones that help keep our vertebral segments orderly. The same hox genes work to make the segments in worms. Leroi writes of the "breathtaking similarity" living creatures have in such arrangements, as evolution has built variations on the same basic plan. "We are, in many ways, merely worms writ large."

There are pygmies and dwarfs here, and giants, and men / women of intermediate sex, albinos, piebalds, cyclopes, and families covered all over in hair.” (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...&n=507846)

[Freethinker]

Ya but are all mutations genetic?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)

Take the concept of all these mutations we have "seen" and think about the fact that some 65% of all fertilized eggs do not come to term, with the primary reason being the resultant genetic combination exceeds acceptable limits and the body rejects it. Imagine how extreme some of these genetic combinations might be if brought to term.

[GAHD]

In an effort to keep this on topic, here's an informative article that helps to explain why we don't see so many six armed monsters.
"Early guesses about the nature of the [genetic] code often started from an assumption that it would maximize information density...The concern with efficiency turned out to be misplaced...The concept that has replaced efficiency...is error-*tolerance..."
- http://www.americanscientist.org/tem.../assetid/37228

I'm still mulling over the specifics, but it holds true to some ideas I'd been kicking around. I particularly like the qwerty refrance.
Enjoy,
-Aaron

[TINNY]

Originally Posted by Freethinker

Tell ya what. Take your favorite monitor. Hold it over the edge on the top of a ten story building and let go of it.

Then ask about the random, unstructured, no designer, no creator, no intellegence effect GRAVITY had on it.

Did it do what I would predict it to do regardless of the random, unstructured, no designer, no creator, no intellegence effect of GRAVITY?

Both Gravity and Evolution have the same set of physical laws to operate in. There is NOTHING random or unstructured about it. Niether needs a designer, creator nor intellegence.

There is a difference. Evolution is a process of increasing complex organizations. If there's entropy, everything would drift towards chaos. There's got to be something that continuously puts energy into the system to direct it or keep getting complex.
Sorry if this is naive and out of context. Read my signature.

[Tormod]

Did you ever read about "junk dna"? There's the chaos in evolution for you. Without chaos and random happenings, there would not be evolution. It is not an orderly process.

There's got to be something that continuously puts energy into the system to direct it or keep getting complex.

Which system? The universe? Since the entropy of the universe as a whole is increasing we can assume that no energy is being put into it.

[gpdone]

Originally Posted by TINNY

There is a difference. Evolution is a process of increasing complex organizations. If there's entropy, everything would drift towards chaos. There's got to be something that continuously puts energy into the system to direct it or keep getting complex.
Sorry if this is naive and out of context. Read my signature.

Hi TINNY,
Not to worry admitting ignorance is a virtue and unlike stupidity it's curable. I think you would benifit from looking up definitions of the term entropy. I believe you will find reference to disorder only in thermodynamics. I also would like to point out that the term chaos, when used by a CHAOS theorist or someone who subscribs to their view, means the opposite of randomness. Freethinkers last reply states a CHAOS view very well including the part about no creator or intelligent agent being logicly necessary.

Lee

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by TINNY

There is a difference. Evolution is a process of increasing complex organizations. If there's entropy, everything would drift towards chaos. There's got to be something that continuously puts energy into the system to direct it or keep getting complex.
Sorry if this is naive and out of context. Read my signature.

Look up. It's called the sun.

The earth is not a closed system. the 2nd law only applies to closed systems. And even then, the 2nd can be used to explain Evolution. Pure Evolution would suggest that any and all mutations would be possible. Thus in pure Evolution EVERY life form would exist. But the 2nd does not allow for "every" all the time. So the more complex, less efficient, is eliminated in the genetic evolutionary process.

[TINNY]

I thought everybody would just ignore my post... i hardly know anything abt thermodynamics, it just happened that i heard it somewhere and thought maybe i should just type off the top of my head and see what kinda response i get.

Did you ever read about "junk dna"?

no, what is it? why is it chaotic

entropy of the universe as a whole is increasing

why is this?

I think you would benifit from looking up definitions of the term entropy

yup, thanks.

The earth is not a closed system. the 2nd law only applies to closed systems. And even then, the 2nd can be used to explain Evolution. Pure Evolution would suggest that any and all mutations would be possible. Thus in pure Evolution EVERY life form would exist. But the 2nd does not allow for "every" all the time. So the more complex, less efficient, is eliminated in the genetic evolutionary process.

I don't understand this quite well. what's pure evolution and the rest?