Intelligent design / creationism

Stargazer · 11-14-2004

When I'm in a debate with IDers (or any kind of creationist) they often say they see design everywhere, and that they cannot comprehend how things are the way they are without their favourite god.

As for the design issue, I hope there are some who believe in intelligent design who could show me exactly what gives away design by an intelligent entity. When is an object designed by an intelligent designer? What are the characteristics? Some of them say that the entire universe is designed. Interesting. Add to this that we design things too, and all you have is a universe where everything is designed, and nothing else - ever. So, how is it then possible to see the difference between design and non-design, when the former is the only thing that exists? (Except for the designer/creator itself, of course, since that would cause uncomfortable problems with the whole concept.)

The part where they say they can't comprehend a universe that is so finetuned without being designed is of course not an argument to begin with. I have no problem with a universe that is not proven to be designed by a creator. If that's how it is, then that's how it is regardless of what I can understand.

Freethinker · 11-15-2004

I'm WAY on the other side of the issue from IDer's. But what I find most interesting when they give examples of obvious "design", is they are actually describing SIMPLICITY, not COMPLEXITY.

e.g. on the local NPR station this AM an IDer was using Stonehenge as an example. What was being promoted was how obvious it is that it was an intentional intellegent effort. And from this they state complexity in design as a connection with organic life.

But Stonehenge is a ORGANIZED presentation of rocks. the otherwise highly complex random arrangement of material is organized into a much SIMPLER form. One with limited parameters. The complexity of randomness is removed by the intellectual effort. Not enhanced.

So they want to claim Complexity as the cornerstone to prove what is actually a SIMPLIFYING process of intellectual involvement.

BlameTheEx · 11-15-2004

Stargazer

Well, now, that begs the question: how intelligent?

I could think of lots of things wrong with my design from the dodgy disks to the now mercifully removed appendix. I suppose you can't rule out the idea that we were created by an incompetent God, or one with a rather sick sense of humour.

In his defence it could be argued that god was an artist. We may not be well constructed but, hey, that's Expressionism.

Then again, perhaps God just doesn't have his eye on the job. Maybe he let off a firecracker, and once the Big Bang fizzled out he lost interest.

Stargazer · 11-16-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by: Freethinker
I'm WAY on the other side of the issue from IDer's. But what I find most interesting when they give examples of obvious "design", is they are actually describing SIMPLICITY, not COMPLEXITY.

e.g. on the local NPR station this AM an IDer was using Stonehenge as an example. What was being promoted was how obvious it is that it was an intentional intellegent effort. And from this they state complexity in design as a connection with organic life.

But Stonehenge is a ORGANIZED presentation of rocks. the otherwise highly complex random arrangement of material is organized into a much SIMPLER form. One with limited parameters. The complexity of randomness is removed by the intellectual effort. Not enhanced.

So they want to claim Complexity as the cornerstone to prove what is actually a SIMPLIFYING process of intellectual involvement.

Very good point. A design is often aimed at a relatively narrow purpose. Design is reduction of randomness, that is, the complexity is reduced. I didn't think of it that way.

Stargazer · 11-16-2004

Quote:

Originally posted by: BlameTheEx
Stargazer

Well, now, that begs the question: how intelligent?

I could think of lots of things wrong with my design from the dodgy disks to the now mercifully removed appendix. I suppose you can't rule out the idea that we were created by an incompetent God, or one with a rather sick sense of humour.

Or we could try to find answers.

Quote:

Then again, perhaps God just doesn't have his eye on the job. Maybe he let off a firecracker, and once the Big Bang fizzled out he lost interest.

Yes, or the entire universe is an apple in a tree in a superverse. Or maybe we're just a dream in a sleeping giant's head.

lindagarrette · 11-16-2004

Seems to me it's irrelevant whether there is anything "intelligent" anywhere if we have no interaction with it and no evidence of it. Again it's just a religious ploy so people support church leaders.

infamous · 01-05-2005

Our designer was the Big Bang, every thing that we are and ever hope to be was determined at that one point and instant of our past. The greater question is; from what and where did the Big Bang originate? Any ideas?