[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by maikeru

Unfortunately, I think certain issues cannot be discussed productively with the Muslim extremists, .

Sadly, you are probably right.

Extremists of any religion are Feral.

Something must have happened to create Muslim Extremists.
Do we know what?

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Something must have happened to create Muslim Extremists.
Do we know what?

The same as any other religious fundamentalism: Acute idiocy.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Something must have happened to create Muslim Extremists.
Do we know what?

Though social science is inexact, I believe yes, we do know with some confidence what happened.

Although predominantly Christian and Muslim states have a history of bitter and brutal warfare from roughly the 11th Century Crusades through WWI, the current problems appear to be related to the formation and subsequent policies of the state of Israel.

In short, despite the designs and intentions of the UK for the formation of a Jewish home state, which, with the support of the international community, they attempted to implement in the 1930s and 40s, the state of Israel failed to be politically inclusive of both the Jewish and Arab people living in and around it. The displacement of predominantly Muslim Arabs by predominantly Jewish non-Arabs, and the inferiors legal and political rights afforded these displaced people, has lead to resentment which is expressed in violence, which is often justified using extremist Muslim ideology. This tension has spread beyond the immediate vicinity of Israel, and is almost certainly the root cause of attacks by Muslims in the US, UK, Spain, the Philippines, and other states. I go into more detail about this in an earlier post, ”A brief history of Israel”.

It’s a difficult situation, which many good statespeople have attempted to improve, with disappointingly limited success, while extremists on both sides call for the unrealistic solution of total genocide of the opposing side. The only solution that seems to me to offer hope of long-term success is to address the political inequality at root cause of the problem. When Jews and Arabs share equal legal and political power in Israel, I believe violence and religious extremism will decrease until only rare, aberrant individuals practice it.

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Tormod

The same as any other religious fundamentalism: Acute idiocy.

Acute idiocy.
And poverty.
And fear of change in the face of cultural incursions.

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

Acute idiocy.
And poverty.
And fear of change in the face of cultural incursions.

Okay, add "mindless group pressure" to the list.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by CraigD

Though social science is inexact, I believe yes, we do know with some confidence what happened.

Thanks for taking my post seriously. i really don't understand fundamentalism.
I guess "idiocy" is as good as any definition.
(A recent TV religious/psychology show suggested that the desire for/ need etc., of humans for religion/spiritualism may be hardwired into some people's brains.)

What about the role of religion and religious artifacts and sites in all this?

After the war their was a brief plan to create "Israel" in a bit old empty Western Australia (seriously!)
How different would the world have been if that happened????!!


But everyone wanted the "Holy" Land --the shibboleths of religion.
I am glad sometimes that I am an atheist if religion leads to killing(Wasn't there commandment about that?)
michael

[maikeru]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Sadly, you are probably right.

Extremists of any religion are Feral.

Something must have happened to create Muslim Extremists.
Do we know what?

"I know I am right beyond any shadow of a doubt, and so should others too."

It's a little more complicated than that, but I think it's the fundamentally same desire that drives zealotry of any kind. It doesn't have to be religious. Political or other ideologies work just as well. This is part of the reason why I think science has a better approach than religion to create human knowledge. The accumulation of knowledge through a process of observation, reasoning, questioning, testing, and reproducibility makes such knowledge approach (but not necessarily meet or be) reality as it is, even if reality will always be to some degree unknowable.

Not all zealots are the same, but I know that I get an undeniably creepy feeling when I meet one. Too many have had the hungry eyes, the wolfish grin, and the lies that lie sweetly upon the tongue.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by maikeru

"I know I am right beyond any shadow of a doubt, and so should others too." This is part of the reason why I think science has a better approach than religion to create human knowledge. The accumulation of knowledge through a process of observation, reasoning, questioning, testing, and reproducibility makes such knowledge approach (but not necessarily meet or be) reality as it is, even if reality will always be to some degree unknowable.

Not all zealots are the same, but I know that I get an undeniably creepy feeling when I meet one. Too many have had the hungry eyes, the wolfish grin, and the lies that lie sweetly upon the tongue.

MMMmmm (thinks)
I think you can have scientific zealotry too.
Medicos took a while to get used to vaccination, germs etc. It took them years to give up the Four-Humours-Theory of Life and stop blood letting and take up blood transfusion. Sometimes an entrenched scientific opinion or world view is hard to shift.

I know what you mean by "The Look". In Zelot Christians it is a bit beatific, supercilious, and "I know I'm going to heaven and you are not"

Another problem Islamists have with the west is Hollywood or the lifestyle depicted therein. The west must look pretty debauched seen though those eyes. Things like acceptance of homosexuality and the dress of women is also a problem. A local Inram just described Australian Girls as "uncovered cat's meat" I think he is sorry he said that, but he has some support in his community.

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

MMMmmm (thinks)
I think you can have scientific zealotry too.
Medicos took a while to get used to vaccination, germs etc. It took them years to give up the Four-Humours-Theory of Life and stop blood letting and take up blood transfusion. Sometimes an entrenched scientific opinion or world view is hard to shift.....

This is true of course. Zealotry is not limited to religion.
However, Science (big S) does not have a central throne of authority or something like an Inquisition to "enforce" the orthodox position.

Poincare (I think) was instrumental in theorizing the underlying equations of Relativity, but when Einstein pushed these ideas to their natural limit, Poincare balked. He refused to allow Einstein's ideas to be taught at the University in Paris, France. This set back several hundred students for a decade or more. But it did NOT set back Science. And then Poincare died and French Science rapidly caught up. Within another decade, Poincare's negative influence had vanished and he is remembered today for his positive accomplishments.

Somebody double check me. Was it Poincare or Plank?

In general, when a scientific paradigm shifts (like the Germ Theory) it takes about one generation for it to firmly take root. The older scientists who cannot make the jump simply die off and leave the stage.

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

...Extremists of any religion are Feral. Something must have happened to create ...Extremists. Do we know what?

May I point you to the book of Ecclesiastes: "There is nothing new under the sun, no not one thing."

On the surface, this appears to be a complaint. But it isn't. It expresses a profound belief that this is the way it should be in a god-governed universe. Every generation must face the same tests, the same enemies, the same tempations, the same obstacles, the same fears and joys. It's only fair, right?

This belief survived as long as change took a loooong time. But in today's world, EVERYTHING changes within one lifetime. And this is unacceptable to the true believer. The world MUST be set aright, the way god made it, the way god wants it.

So that today's people will not have to deal with anything more complicated or more troublesome than did their ancestors.