Who killed the electric Car

[Zythryn]

I would love to see what it would be now with Lithium-ion batteries.
I am really surprised at the lack of activity of the major car companies with the tesla motors upstart gearing to break into the market.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by Zythryn

I would love to see what it [the EV1] would be now with Lithium-ion batteries.

Companies such as Hymotion are selling Li-Ion batteries for a limited number of gas/electric hybrid now.

I am really surprised at the lack of activity of the major car companies with the tesla motors upstart gearing to break into the market.

I’ve a suspicion that, even with recent improvements in EV technology, they’ll continue to have little market success, with the possible exception of a small, high-performance nitch.

My humble prediction is that “plug-in hybrid electric vehicles” (PHEVs) – production gas/electric hybrid vehicles with minor modifications to their wiring and power control systems – such as after-market conversions of the Toyota Prius by companies such as Hymotion and user groups such as CalCars – will in the next few years be sold as factory options by manufacturers (These manufacturer’s statements appear to support my prediciton). These vehicles can be operated as 100% electric vehicles for short range commuting, drawing nearly all of their energy from the owners’ home electric supply, or using their normal gas and electric engines for long trips, combining the best features of both modes of operation.

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by CraigD

My humble prediction is that “plug-in hybrid electric vehicles” (PHEVs) – production gas/electric hybrid vehicles with minor modifications to their wiring and power control systems – such as after-market conversions of the Toyota Prius by companies such as Hymotion and user groups such as CalCars – will in the next few years be sold as factory options by manufacturers ([url=http://www.calcars.org/carmakers.html]

Very interesting. I had not considered that possibility. I would agree with you.
However, with a hybrid system you still require the inefficient (relatively) combustion motor which a pure electric avoids. My guess is that the added weight and maintanance would cost more time and money (over the car's lifespan) than a pure electric motor.

Of course, the next couple of generations of electric vehicles may suffer from higher price as the technology is relatively new. So it should be interesting to see how the two markets pan out over the next few years.

[TheBigDog]

Originally Posted by Erasmus00

Keep in mind that people that leased prototype EV1s from GM were not allowed to purchase them when they ended the program in 2003. Many people did in fact want to purchase the cars. What specifically do you mean when you claim they sucked? Do you have numbers for the cars range, or max acceleration?

Also, keep in mind the advantage to the electric car isn't necessarily reducing oil consumption but cleaning up the air quality in cities.
-Will

The cost of the 1100 cars produced came to $900,000 each when the R&D costs exclusive to that vehicle were included. Only NASA could be impressed with their performance for that price. And in the end they were never intended for private ownership. They were a prototype loaned out to the public at a loss. When the line got cancelled to stop the cash bleeding the world cried foul. To have sold the cars to the public would have required GM to maintain spare parts for these engineering abortions for ten years. Even if the actual cost of manufacturing each vehicle was only estimated at $80,000 each, keeping a network of parts, supplying training, and the other things that are required by the federal, CA and AZ governments would have cost GM millions more to make a hundred or so customers stay happy. They did the smart thing and cut their losses. If they had really been smart they would never have gone past prototype. The cars sucked.

The first thing you need to see to drive automobile technology is a viable racing circuit. That is what drives auto technology, competition on the track. Want to see fuel economy improve? Wait for F1 or NASCAR to limit fuel so cars need to get 20 mpg. When F1 outlawed turbo chargers everyone thought it would kill them. Within a couple of years the cars were faster than ever naturally asperated. When you see Hybrid racing and Electric racing that is being done with real budgets you will finally see the technology become mainstream enough to become commercially viable.

Bill

[Zythryn]

I agree with you Bill. GM would have continued to bleed money if they had allowed anyone to keep their EV1s.

I am just hoping they didn't toss out what they learned so the next generation is better.

Personally I like Saturns and have written Saturn telling them I will be buying an electric car in 2008. I told them I would like it to be a Saturn, but if they don't have one it will be a Tesla.

Wrote Toyota too (since they had the Rav4-EV) and told them I was buying an EV in 2008 and if they had one on the market it would be in the running.

Although I don't think we will see an EV on the racing circuit (unless the race is under 225 miles) I do think they will become viable.

[apeweek]

Originally Posted by infamous

...Electricity looses much of it's energy just in the transmission of it from the power station to your home. I vote for bio-diesel or maybe the hydrogen fuel cell. Either method is better than pluging your car into a houshold outlet,.........IMHO..............Infy

Efficiency is the EV's strongest point.

It's gasoline that loses most of its efficiency, not electricity. The electric grid is 95% efficient. Battery storage is 88% efficient. Electric traction motors are 95% efficient, and transmissionless EVs get most of that power right to the road.

Gasoline, on the other hand, must be drilled for, pumped, transported, and refined. All these steps use energy, and reduce the overall efficiency of the fuel. When the gas arrives at your car, it is burned in a 25% efficient gas engine, which then loses even more efficiency due to idling, braking, and running outside of its optimum powerband. Typically, under 10% of gasoline's energy makes it to the road.

I'm all for biodeisel and hydrogen, but if those fuels burn in the same inefficient ICE, there is no efficiency improvement. Fuel cell cars are EVs, but the energy is stored in hydrogen instead of a battery. Unfortunately, batteries are 88% efficient, and fuel cells are maybe 50% efficient. So when you use electricity to extract hyrogen, you have wasted energy that could be more efficiently stored in a battery.

[apeweek]

Originally Posted by TheBigDog

The cost of the 1100 cars produced came to $900,000 each when the R&D costs exclusive to that vehicle were included. ...
...The first thing you need to see to drive automobile technology is a viable racing circuit.
Bill

Of course, a large percentage of that money GM says they spent on the EV1 wasn't their money. It was government money - our tax dollars given to automakers to incentivize EV development. I also wouldn't be surprised if that budget included the money GM spent to lobby against the EV mandate they wanted killed.

For EV drag racing, look at the NEDRA website, nedra.com.

[TheFaithfulStone]

Hey apeweek - could you provide citations for those efficiency numbers you cited?

Thanks
TFS

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by TheFaithfulStone

Hey apeweek - could you provide citations for those efficiency numbers you cited?

Thanks
TFS

Not sure if this is where apeweek got the numbers, however you can find similar numbers with footnotes at:
http://www.teslamotors.com/media/whi...lectricCar.pdf

Or a more 'readable' version (sans footnotes) at http://www.teslamotors.com/blog1/?p=8#more-8

[apeweek]

Originally Posted by TheFaithfulStone

Hey apeweek - could you provide citations for those efficiency numbers you cited?
Thanks
TFS

Sure. I have tried to provide at least two sources, and used government sources whenever possible. If I've glossed over anything, let me know, I'll provide it. This system won't let me post links; I haven't been a member long enough. I am 'dumbing' the links so they get through. You may need to add the 'www' to the front.

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Gas engine efficiency
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Everything2.Com
everything2.com/index.pl?node=internal%20combustion%20engine

Argonne national laboratory
anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2006/news060622.html


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Transmission line efficiency
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Paper: 'Economic and engineering constraints on the restructuring of the electric power industry'
public.lanl.gov/u106527/ELISIMS/Econ_paper.pdf
(points out that the industry standard is 95% efficiency)

From greenhouse to green house
mng.org.uk/green_house/renewable_energy/csp_sections/csp_transport.htm
(figure given is 3% transmission loss per 1000 km.)

News story about utility overcharging. Figure given is 3% transmission loss (97% efficient)
pur.com/pubs/790.cfm

climatetechnology.gov/library/2003/tech-options/tech-options-1-3-2.pdf
Says transmission losses in 1995 were 7.2% (92.8 efficient)

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Electricity is used to refine gasoline
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science.howstuffworks.com/oil-refining4.htm
(some of the steps require temperatures as high as 1500 degrees)

Book, 'Energy and Transportation: challenges for the Chemical sciences in the 21st century'
darwin.nap.edu/books/0309087414/html/23.html
look for 'OCR for page 25', it says "the energy efficiency of a typical refinery is between 87 and 92 percent."


Mechanical Engineering Magazine
memagazine.org/backissues/oct99/features/upping/upping.html
"Petroleum refineries are prime candidates for improvement in energy efficiency; roughly 40 percent of their operating cost is incurred by energy demands. Chevron, one of the largest petroleum refiners in the United States, operates six gasoline-producing refineries, including one in Richmond, Calif. This facility typically processes 240,000 barrels of crude oil per day, producing diesel fuel, gasoline, jet fuel, and lubrication oil. Its annual electricity costs are just over $25 million."
($.285/barrel)

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Battery efficiency
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Lithium-Ion Batteries:
Linear Technology
national.com/appinfo/power/files/swcap_eet.pdf
Paper says 88% efficient (over the usable charge-discharge range)

Lead-Acid and NI-CD Batteries:
Arizona Wind and Sun
windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
"Typical efficiency in a lead-acid battery is 85-95% "

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Electric motor efficiency
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Washington State University
energyexperts.org/energy_solutions/res_details.cfm?resourceID=3823&;keyword=cheap&sec tor=All
"A 250 hp standard efficiency motor has a pretty good efficiency on the order of 94.2%. A typical or generic NEMA Premium Efficiency motor would have an efficiency of 96.3%"


Public Service of New Hampshire
psnh.com/Business/SmallBusiness/Motor.asp
Chart showing that 25+ horsepower electric motors have efficiencies between 90 and 96%

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Fuel Cell Efficiency
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Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell
"The efficiency of a fuel is very dependent on the current through the fuel cell: as a general rule, the more current drawn, the lower the efficiency. A cell running at 0.6V has an efficiency of about 50%, meaning that 50% of the available energy content of the hydrogen is converted into electrical energy; the remaining 50% will be converted into heat."