Combined effects of fluoxetine and DMT

[dancingbear]

I'm interested in the effects of the SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor) antidepressant fluoxetine (sold eg. as "Prozac") combined with the psychedelic tryptamine called Dimethyltryptamine (DMT), also known as N,N-dimethyltryptamine.

I'm well aware that DMT is not orally active unless it is combined with a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI), such as harmaline. I'm also aware that combining MAOIs and SSRIs is very dangerous, possibly resulting in serotonin syndrome (ie. serotonin "overdose"). Not good. Possibly even fatal.

But, when smoked, DMT is active without the need of using MAOIs. Now, what I wish to know is, are there any dangers in combining smoked DMT and fluoxetine (which I am taking daily as an antidepressant)? And if not dangers per sé, any other effects?

I'd be very grateful if some wise soul could provide me with some helpful information. This seems like a vastly helpful forum. Thank you in advance!

[orbsycli]

ask Erowid

we're a lovely rainbow.

[InfiniteNow]

Folk 'round here?

It's not us and them, orb, it's just us. Puff puff post, biatch...


The reference above is a good one, and the information on erowid sound. If the discussion here continues, please try to stick to the science of the experience, not the "wow, I saw god" parts... As explained well in site rules.

[orbsycli]

Even though I've researched DMT on my own time for many hours, days.

I still don't understand it.

[dancingbear]

Thank you. Yes, I know Erowid, but they don't seem to have information on this particular chemical combination.

And no, I'm not planning to flood a science forum with some hippie awe stories. I'm only interested in the chemistry of the aforementioned subject.

[InfiniteNow]

The method of action will not be different just because you smoke it instead of ingest it. It acts on the serotonin of cells, and smoking it will just put it into the body more quickly and it will hit the brain quicker.

Overall, you take the SSRI because your body has problems making enough (or using efficiently) seratonin. By taking a drug which specifically impacts seratonin, you are further reducing your body's ability to up the output on it's own.

Think of someone who takes steroids. Their body makes less testosterone because it's getting it from another source. Same thing here, except you have the added problem of seratonin overdose.

Don't get stuck in the K-hole. There are better places to be, and not as many tradeoffs required to enjoy them.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by dancingbear

Now, what I wish to know is, are there any dangers in combining smoked DMT and fluoxetine (which I am taking daily as an antidepressant)?

Unfortunately, as DMT is a schedule I controlled substance, none of the commercial available drug interaction data bases to which I have access, such as Medispan (which include not only theoretical contraindications, but empirical clinically observed one) contain this information.

Fluoxetine (Prozac) is a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. This means that it blocks the absorption (uptake) of serotonin by non-psychotropic nerve cells (pre-synaptic receptors), increasing its concentration in psychotropic (post-synaptic) cells, strengthening the effect of the serotonin. Serotonin and DMT, both tryptamines, are chemically similar. It’s reasonable to assume, therefore, that Fluoxetine will likewise increase the potency of DMT.

DMT increases blood pressure and heart rate, so taking it with fluoexetine runs a risk of dangerously increasing blood pressure and heart rate.

So, in the absence of good clinical data about the interaction, and given these theoretical predictions, I think someone taking an SSRI would be wise to be very cautious with smoked DMT dosage, especially if one has any hypertension or heart-related medical conditions, at the very least, having a caretaker monitor one’s vital signs.

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

The method of action will not be different just because you smoke it instead of ingest it.

Though essentially correct, this is a somewhat deceptive statement.

Once DMT reaches the synapse, how it was ingested is irrelevant. However, as dancingbear notes, unless taken with an effective MAOI, such as harmaline, almost no DMT taken by mouth reaches the synapses. Also, as with any drug, the control of dosage when taken by mouth is less precise. This is because, with a fast-acting delivery method like smoking, one can quickly stop ingesting the drug, whereas when one is absorbing it through one’s stomach, one can’t.

It acts on the serotonin of cells, and smoking it will just put it into the body more quickly and it will hit the brain quicker.

DMT doesn’t act on serotonin, it acts like serotonin. Both are neurotransmitters, interacting with receptors in the synapses, but not with one another.

By taking a drug which specifically impacts seratonin, you are further reducing your body's ability to up the output on it's own.

Although this is an opinion held by many, including some clinicians, it’s not one supported by clinical evidence. Despite early worries that patients taking SSRIs for lengthy periods, then stopping, would suffer neurological disorders, many long term studies have revealed no cases of this.

Unfortunately, although much is known about the action of serotonin and other tryptamines in synapses, detailed, direct measurement of it in a living patient is not practical. Such levels can be measured in lab animals, but only by quickly extracting whole samples of nerve tissue, which is injurious, usually fatal, to the animal.

[dancingbear]

Thank you for your lengthy and informative answer, CraigD. This is the kind of information I am after, not only for myself, but for all persons who could benefit from knowing more about the combined effects of certain chemicals on the human brain.

Originally Posted by CraigD

Unfortunately, as DMT is a schedule I controlled substance, none of the commercial available drug interaction data bases to which I have access, such as Medispan (which include not only theoretical contraindications, but empirical clinically observed one) contain this information.

After having read Dr. Rick Strassman's book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" and seeing that he had similar problems which almost made his studies impossible, I've come to the frustrating conclusion that this is one of the main reasons there is too little of empirical, scientific information on certain chemicals.

These chemicals won't go away, illegal or not. People will experiment with them. And without reliable information, accidents are bound to happen.

[orbsycli]

Probably some of the most...menacing "accidents" in the universe, too.