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Published by johnfp 04-22-2008
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#1
By
Essay
on
04-22-2008
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| Re: Crosslinking Gelatin Wow, what a lot of whork! ![]() "When taken below 2% water content the emulsion is insoluble at room temperature due to being fully crosslinked." When you say fully, do you mean completely -overriding the 'Cr-variations', or just finished changing (preserving the Cr variations? "Because the dark reaction of CrVI to CrV is also slow, more CrIII and more crosslinking in formed in the light struck areas CrV to CrIII, then in the non light struck areas, CrVI to CrV to CrIII (15)." Can you restate this "question?" ...sounds as if the electrons come from different areas of the collagen molecules (depending on conditions) and that causes a different kind of crosslinking? Is this what you're focusing on? ![]() |
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#2
By
UncleAl
on
04-23-2008
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| Re: Crosslinking Gelatin Add a percent or two glutaraldehyde to mildly acidic gelatin solution. Similar borax solution is interesting if somewhat reversible. Gelatin capsules are typically gelatin plasticed with glycerin or sorbitol followed by slight sustained hydration with humidity. |
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#3
By
johnfp
on
04-24-2008
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| Re: Crosslinking Gelatin Quote:
Fully crosslinked really has nothing to do with the Cr variations. There are many other ways to crosslink the gelatin. Formaldyhide would work. The crosslinking is the strong bonding of the amino chains, not the weak hydrogen bonds. The Cr give up the electrons when struck with light and it is these electrons that are used in the gelatin crosslinking. - Incorrect Corect answer is: the Cr has a strong tendoncy to accept electrons. The electron it accepts comes from the amino groups. But then, how does this losing of an electron allow the amino groups to bond? I am trying to fully understand the whole process and having been out of school for so long, I would like to understand it more mechanically then scientifiically. I would also like to finish this writing such that anyone can understand it, not just chemists or science professionals. | |
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Last edited by johnfp; 04-24-2008 at 07:13 AM.
Reason: Incorrect third paragraph.
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#4
By
johnfp
on
04-24-2008
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| Re: Crosslinking Gelatin Quote:
The Chromium is still in the CrVI state. On exposure to the appropriate light source (actinic radiation) the Chromium gains an electron by oxidizing some of the amino acid groups (Where from and how does it gain this electron?) and becomes CrV very quickly and easily. I guess I want to understand how oxidation works. In this case we hit the CrVI with light. It must excite the CrVI but how does it excite it to make it want to accept an electron? Or is the light exciting the electron on amino acid group to the point it becomes "loose" and it just so happens the CrVI is very willing to accept this free electron. And If the amino acid group does lose this electron, how does that allow the chains to bond? I guess the CrVI which is now CrV does not give up the electron so easily and thus the amino chain bonds with another amino chain by sharing and electron. Does this sound correct? | |
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#5
By
johnfp
on
04-24-2008
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| Re: Crosslinking Gelatin Quote:
I have read with some time release capsules, the study of partially crosslinked gelatin usage is very imporatant. But the actuall papers must be guarded as they are hard to find. Any links to any papers on crosslinking or gelatin that you do not think I have seen (footnotes) please forward them to me. | |
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#6
By
Essay
on
04-24-2008
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| Re: Crosslinking Gelatin re:Fully crosslinked really has nothing to do with the Cr variations. There are many other ways to crosslink the gelatin. Formaldyhide would work. The crosslinking is the strong bonding of the amino chains, not the weak hydrogen bonds. Yep, but this misses the point of my poorly focused inquiry.... ...let's see, when I said, "Cr variations," I meant the variations in crosslinking caused by the light-Cr interactions? If you could re-read that first question (with that substitution) it should make more sense. The Cr give up the electrons when struck with light and it is these electrons that are used in the gelatin crosslinking. Where does this sentence come from? (you're right, it's incorrect, but...?) -did someone say this somewhere else? "But then, how does this losing of an electron allow the amino groups to bond?" The answer here should be basic chemistry to you. You need to understand that much, at least. It's so fundamental, I can't think of an easy way to jot it off here, now. Quote:
Yep, that's why I put quotes around the word "question;" it's a statement that begs several questions. "I guess I want to understand how oxidation works." Yep, see above about basics of chemistry. "In this case we hit the CrVI with light." Yes, but you need to be thinking about the light and the collagen. "Or is the light exciting the electron on amino acid group to the point it becomes "loose" and it just so happens the CrVI is very willing to accept this free electron." Now you've got it! "....CrV does not give up the electron so easily and thus .... Does this sound correct?" ...but yes, ultimately some amino acids are crosslinking as electrons go to the Chromium. ...wait, maybe if you restated that as CrV does accept electrons so easily and thus.... Yes, that sounds correct. This is the point though where I was becoming interested. From your description of the process, it seems as if the collagen has different sites from which to differentially donate electrons. I wonder if the Chromium has a preferred position "on" the collagen (or vice versa). ...and if the Cr might shift (or attract, and access different areas of collagen) as it's oxidation state changes. I hope I'm not making this worse, by being picky. That should just be for this first clarification. Future...less picky? Too bad there isn't an animation of this happening. ![]() "If this latent hologram is allowed to sit in the dark, the CrV continues to gain electrons (from where?) and converts to CrIII causing additional crosslinking." But yes, this is the crux of the biscuit. That this happens makes me think of the multiple (differential) donor sites. ...different "kinds" of cross-linking? Whoops, gotta run. BBL | |
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#7
By
johnfp
on
04-24-2008
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| Re: Crosslinking Gelatin Quote:
Here is what I understand so far. The collagen is denatured and breaks down into animo acid chains. These chains have a tendency to bond weakly (not sure what bond this is but I venture to guess it uses the water molecule somehow or the simple fact that the two ends of the amino chain have opposite charges). It is harder to get the strong amino bonds, that were present when the chains were in the collagen arrangement, to form this strong bond. It is the catalyst of Cr which freely accepts the free electrons from the amino acids (not sure where this bond resides..Glycine, Proline, Hydroxyproline etc...) which allows them to form this strong bond with one anther as existed in the collagin triple helix. Although that since the strands are haphazardly arranged, even thought the stong bonds form, the triple helix may or may not be formed. So let me try to explain observations I have seen. I make a gelatin solution with AmDi and coat a plate and let it dry (about 6 hours). I then expose half the plate with adequate light and do not expose the other half. I then remove the remaining AmDi (with sodium metabisulfite but we dont have to go there yet). I then place the plate in warm water. I see the unexposed half swell more in the water then the exposed half. This is telling me the crosslinking in the exposed half has formed some type of strong bond that makes the chains more rigid to one another and thus cannot expand to hold the water. Then I place the plate in Isopropyl Alcohol which absorbs the water out of the gelatin. The unexposed half then shrinks more then the exposed half. This also tells me the strands in the unexposed half are not rigidly bonded to one another and thus allows them to contract or fall down upon one another more tightly. The exposed half pretty much stays the same thickness in water and after alcohol drying. Furthmore, the unexposed area can actually lose some amino chains in the warm water and the exposed area does not. This also allows the unexposed area to shrink even a little more. So this kind of reinforces the fact that there is some weak bond and some strong bond. The weak bond breaks in simply warm water while the other stong bond as I call it does not. The strong bond remains even in water temperature as high as 32C. I would love to know what these bonds are and with what amino acids and whatever else contributes to these bonds. Quote:
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Last edited by johnfp; 04-24-2008 at 10:31 AM.
Reason: added quote
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#8
By
johnfp
on
04-24-2008
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| Re: Crosslinking Gelatin Just found this. I may contact the author. Sandwalk: Collagen Collagen is the major protein component of the connective tissue of vertebrates; it constitutes about 25% to 35% of the total protein in mammals. Collagen molecules have remarkably diverse forms and functions. For example, collagen in tendons forms stiff, ropelike fibers of tremendous tensile strength; in skin, collagen takes the form of loosely woven fibers, permitting expansion in all directions. The structure of collagen was worked out by G. N. Ramachandran (famous for his Ramachandran plots). The molecule consists of three left-handed helical chains coiled around each other to form a right-handed supercoil. Each lefthanded helix in collagen has 3.0 amino acid residues per turn and a pitch of 0.94 nm, giving a rise of 0.31 nm per residue. The collagen triple helix is stabilized by interchain hydrogen bonds. The sequence of the protein in the helical region consists of multiple repeats of the form –Gly–X–Y–, where X is often proline and Y is often a modified proline called 4-hydroxyproline. The glycine residues are located along the central axis of the triple helix, where tight packing of the protein strands can accommodate no other residue. For each –Gly–X–Y– triplet, one hydrogen bond forms between the amide hydrogen atom of glycine in one chain and the carbonyl oxygen atom of residue X in an adjacent chain. Hydrogen bonds involving the hydroxyl group of hydroxyproline may also stabilize the collagen triple helix. Unlike the more common α helix, the collagen helix has no intrachain hydrogen bonds. In addition to hydroxyproline, collagen contains an additional modified amino acid residue called 5-hydroxylysine. Some hydroxylysine residues are covalently bonded to carbohydrate residues, making collagen a glycoprotein. The role of this glycosylation is not known. Hydroxyproline and hydroxylysine residues are formed when specific proline and lysine residues are hydroxylated after incorporation into the polypeptide chains of collagen. The hydroxylation reactions are catalyzed by enzymes and require ascorbic acid (vitamin C). Collagen triple helices aggregate in a staggered fashion to form strong, insoluble fibers. The strength and rigidity of collagen fibers result in part from covalent cross-links. The groups of the side chains of some lysine and hydroxylysine residues are converted enzymatically to aldehyde groups producing allysine and hydroxyallysine residues. Allysine residues (and their hydroxy derivatives) react with the side chains of lysine and hydroxylysine residues to form Schiff bases, complexes formed between carbonyl groups and amines. These Schiff bases usually form between collagen molecules. |
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Last edited by johnfp; 04-24-2008 at 10:44 AM.
Reason: added bold
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#9
By
johnfp
on
04-24-2008
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| Re: Crosslinking Gelatin Quote:
Then, if this IS the strong bond, does light cause those gained electrons to move more excitedly and become less stable and thus could get knocked off and it just so happens the Cr attracts the elecron(s) very easy. So when the Cr gains the electron(s) the amind hydrogen atom and the carbonyl oxygen atom can then rebond to reform that strong bond? That must be it. | |
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Last edited by johnfp; 04-24-2008 at 11:03 AM.
Reason: Added last sent.
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