electrolysis of H2O

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electrolysis of H2O

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Published by boltazar 07-10-2008

I'm looking for the best plate spacing of SS plates to produce Browns gas. I'm using 12 volts, would like to not go over 15 amps. Also could someone explain the use of neutral plates between + and- plates. Plate size of 2" X 8" in distilled water.

If my understanding is correct a + plate and a - plate and as many neutrals make up a cell. Two or more cells would spread the voltage input proportionally lowering heat output.

Comments + or - greatly appreciated, Thank You

Pete

By modest on 07-12-2008

Re: electrolysis of H2O

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltazar

I'm looking for the best plate spacing of SS plates to produce Browns gas. I'm using 12 volts, would like to not go over 15 amps.

Hello boltazar. Interesting topic you've got here. Let me preface what I'm about to say with: Please be careful. There are a lot of claims floating around the internet about "Brown's Gas" not being explosive. I think these claims are nearly criminally negligent in their dishonesty. I don't know what you're using this for nor would I question you're capacity to do so safely - just a general warning

The formula for electrical resistance is:

$R = \frac{l \times \rho}{A}$

where:

R = total resistance
l = length
A = cross section
$\rho$ = specific electrical resistance of conductor

Given that $\rho$ = 18.18 M $\Omega \times$ cm at 25 C, you could use this to give yourself an approximate guess as to how far apart they'd be. However, this is actually going to be a bad guess for two reasons. One, the resistance of an electrolyte can have a lot of variability especially as it heats up which yours is bound to do. Two, you're talking about using a neutral plate which will throw the above calculation way off. So, don't bother with the calculation. If you're looking for 15 amps then just use an ohmmeter. That would be easier and more accurate than calculating as above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltazar

Also could someone explain the use of neutral plates between + and- plates. Plate size of 2" X 8" in distilled water. If my understanding is correct a + plate and a - plate and as many neutrals make up a cell. Two or more cells would spread the voltage input proportionally lowering heat output.

Comments + or - greatly appreciated, Thank You

Pete

The neutral plate will allow you to place the + and - plates closer together while keeping the current down and the temperature down incidentally. This probably has something to do with "brown's gas" generation suggesting closer plates do this better - but I don't know what that is or why that would be.

Considering the difficulties in making "brown's gas" and the limited application if and when you've got it, I have to ask. Are you sure normal $2H_2 : O_2$ wouldn't work for what you're doing? I'll point you to a very good and comprehensive collection of expert discussion on the topic which I really honestly suggest you read from top to bottom before potentially wasting effort and money:

Brown's Gas information

Good luck,

~modest

By boltazar on 07-17-2008

Re: electrolysis of H2O

Modest, thanks for the info. I'm going to make a Browns gas generator to enhance the gasoline MPG in my truck. From what I've read this is safe possible and effective. At this point I'm exploring using flat plates for the generator vs round pipes internally stacked. I'm not sure how much surface area should be used, flat vs round. plate or pipe stack will be -nnn+ to keep heat and voltage down. Varying electrolyte can help HHO production and heat.

comments are always welcome Pete

By modest on 07-18-2008

Re: electrolysis of H2O

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltazar

Ok boltazar. I will explain the problem. First off, you can't take tanks of "brown's gas"... hold on. For reason's I won't get into I find it impossible to say "brown's gas" without quotes and mostly don't like saying it at all so I'm going to call it HHO...

Ok. First off, you can't take tanks of HHO with you in your car. This means you are going to have a heavy electrolysis generator with you while driving. The generator is going to need electrical power which you will need to generate as you drive. You are considering adding HHO to your carburetor in order to increase gas efficiency. There are mechanical engineering challenges here that I won't get into because there is a bigger problem.

Whatever energy you gain by putting HHO in the engine you will also loose by generating the HHO. It costs energy to do electrolysis which will probably come from the battery which will come from the alternator which comes from the engine and ultimately the fuel in the gas tank. At every step you loose energy to inefficiency. The energy lost to heat in the electrolyte is lost energy. Charging the battery is not 100% efficient nor will all the HHO turn to water. Basically, you don't get something for nothing. No free lunches.

This setup will not increase you vehicles gas efficiency - it will lower it.

Sorry,

~modest

By boltazar on 07-19-2008

Re: electrolysis of H2O

Modest, I understand what your saying and it's obvious, it stands to reason.

BUT

There are a number of HHO generators on the market and from the forums I've been reading, about this HHO gas, it does increase gasoline mileage. Not to mention reduce pollution. The generators are small, about the size of a football and weigh about 8 pounds filled with electrolyte. On average 15 amps will produce 1-2 liters per min. Adjustments must be made to the computer sensors but that's no biggie.

I'd like to hear your thoughts about the mechanical engineering challenges I may encounter to be fully versed before I try this. The better understanding I have of a situation the better I can be prepared.

Thanks for the reply Pete

By Turtle

on 07-19-2008

Re: electrolysis of H2O

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltazar

The producer of the Coast to Coast radio program, Tom, put one of these devices on in recent weeks and lost about 2 miles to the gallon. The engineer claimed they had to tweak the chip.

Anyway, what no one is really mentioning in regards to hydrogen is that it is highly corrosive. If & when it's in use in an internal combustion engine for any appreciable length of time, I expect to see the engines ruined by corrosion. Same goes for the distribution equipment, i.e. tanks, nozzles, hoses, etcetera. >>Metallic Corrosion - Hydrogen Damage
Best of luck. Go methanol; it's a no-brainer.

Last edited by Turtle; 07-19-2008 at 03:25 PM.

By Moontanman on 07-19-2008

Re: electrolysis of H2O

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle

The producer of the Coast to Coast radio program, Tom, put one of these devices on in recent weeks and lost about 2 miles to the gallon. The engineer claimed they had to tweak the chip.

Um... I'm pretty sure hydrogen has to under quite a bit of pressure before it becomes significantly corrosive. Hydrogen is a reducing gas, most metal used in engines do not corrode in a reducing atmosphere. How ever the idea of something for nothing does indeed apply to browns gas as it does to perpetual motion or any else that wants to improve efficiency by using power from an engine.

By Turtle

on 07-19-2008

Re: electrolysis of H2O

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Um... I'm pretty sure hydrogen has to under quite a bit of pressure before it becomes significantly corrosive.

Something like a venturi or a cylinder produces perhaps? Or heaven forbid the storage tanks? I recall our friend Charlie O of the 'earth's core is hydrogen' fame had a lot of practical experience with hydrogen corrosion of drill rigs. I dunno; I'm just sayin'.

By Moontanman on 07-19-2008

Re: electrolysis of H2O

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle

Hydrogen is not a particularly corrosive gas as say oxygen, H2O, NH3, CO, chlorine, fluorine, or even nitrogen. Iron for instance will not corrode in a atmosphere of hydrogen. If we lived in a reducing atmosphere iron would probably exist as a native metal like gold does in our atmosphere. Under lots of pressure like in a storage tank under thousands of pounds of pressure some metals cannot be used but there are plenty of metals that are not affected by hydrogen.

By modest on 07-19-2008

Re: electrolysis of H2O

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltazar

In the interest of scientific accuracy here I should elaborate. It is possible to get slightly more energy out of hydrogen than the energy you put into electrolysis. This is true because there are two variables going into this particular cell. There is the electrical energy and heat. At about 1.5 volts, all of the electricity becomes gas and above 1.5 volts, some of the electricity becomes heat. Between 1.2 and 1.5 volts, the reaction is endothermic and uses heat energy from the environment. So, in a perfect world

it is possible to get one sixth more energy from HHO than the electricity you put into the generator. This is the science that lets them get away with making extraordinary claims.

However, in practice you're not going to get this. Your system is not going to have perfect or even good efficiency. As turtle points out, people who actually buy one of these generators and go through all the trouble of setting up the system are bound to have worse gas mileage at the end of the day.

This is the energy flow of a normal car:

gasoline -> piston -> mechanical energy propels car

Here is what HHO will do:

gasoline -> alternator -> electrolysis generator -> HHO -> piston -> mechanical energy propels car

Either way the energy is coming from gas(petrol). So, this isn't a free lunch. Your gas mileage will not be improved. There will not be less pollution. There is a small amount of science obfuscating this hoax. It's a complicated unneeded extra step that has no benefit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boltazar

I'd like to hear your thoughts about the mechanical engineering challenges I may encounter to be fully versed before I try this. The better understanding I have of a situation the better I can be prepared.

Thanks for the reply Pete

As turtle pointed out, there are issues with hydrogen embrittlement. I'm unsure about issues of temperature in the cylinder. Two liters of hydrogen and one liter of oxygen will make about 175 kJoules of energy which is of course different from gasoline. The flow of hydrogen will not be constant meaning neither will the temp. This is all beside the point though.

It saddens me to think how many people are loosing money on this considering science is being used to fool people

~modest

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