“Kanzius Effect” RF-induced flame from saltwater

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Nitack

Does the size of the equipment you use correlate to energy requirements?

Yes, generally that's the way it works.

Originally Posted by Nitacker

I would pay to see that

Gotta light?

Originally Posted by Nitack

I think you are actually missing a wonderful opportunity that hydrogen affords. What is the main argument against 100% solar energy? It only works half of the time because the sun goes down. However, if you are able to produce enough electricity to account for all of your needs (day and night) during those sunny hours, you can use that excess electricity to split hydrogen out of water to be used when the sun is not out. Hydrogen offers the opportunity to store your solar energy with out the need for expensive (not to mention toxic) batteries.

I was coming back to clarify that what Dr. Bomb there in the video is making is not Hydrogen, but a mix of Hydrogen & Oxygen often called HhO or Brown's gas. I dare him to compress it!

As to storing solar electricity, I again think it is capacitors and not batteries that will solve the problem. Hydrogen is dandy rocket fuel, but I see way more problems than benefits trying to make it work as an everyday fuel. For one thing, unlike other compressed gases such as propane, Hydrogen is corrosive and I expect that if anyone uses it very long that the associated equipment will rapidly fail. Storage tanks, hoses, nozzles, engines...the whole kit-n-kaboodle. No Sir...the Hydrogen fuel meme is as trendy as YouTube.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Nitack

YouTube - Burning Salt Water!

Another thing! As if. In the video, the inventor, Mr. I. B. A. Chucklehead sticks his hand in the radio 'beam' and claims it does no damage. I dare him to leave it in very long, or better yet subject some other parts of his anatomy to the field for any but a short, short time. If his device disassociates Hydrogen & Oxygen atoms from salt water in a vial, then it's going to do exactly the same thing to salt water in the body. Let's see...we're just bags of about 70% water and we have a salinity about like ocean water. Yeah; I wouldn't stand too close to this machine either.

[Nitack]

Originally Posted by modest

I don't think that's a hydrogen flame. The color of the flame is yellow - exactly what you'd expect burning sodium metal to look like. Hydrogen burns clear. The fact that it needs salt would support that something is happening with the sodium.

That's really interesting. Would anyone mind if I split this into the chemistry forum?

~modest

Go for it

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by modest

I don't think that's a hydrogen flame. The color of the flame is yellow - exactly what you'd expect burning sodium metal to look like. Hydrogen burns clear. The fact that it needs salt would support that something is happening with the sodium.

That's really interesting. Would anyone mind if I split this into the chemistry forum?

~modest

Excellent observation!

Yes to the split.

Now to the twist. Since the fella is using seawater in at least one of his demonstrations, and since chlorine is 55% of seawater salt vs. sodium @ 30.6%, then oughtn't the flame burn with some green? Or maybe the other salts get deposited on the sides of the vial as the seawater is used?

[modest]

Originally Posted by Turtle

Excellent observation!

I'm looking around blogs and whatnot and I can't find anyone saying the same. But, it does seem to me that a reasonable explanation would be the sodium vaporizing. If the radio waves are at a frequency that excited the sodium much like microwaves do water then it seems at least reasonable.

One thing is certain. That flame is not clear or even blue like you would expect hydrogen. Also, if it is then has he collected it? Why not fill up a balloon and see what's there? I can't find a claim that he's done that which seems suspicious

I don't know though. I'm probably wrong about this. I haven't looked to much into it... Just read a couple blogs.

Originally Posted by Turtle

Now to the twist. Since the fella is using seawater in at least one of his demonstrations, and since chlorine is 55% of seawater salt vs. sodium @ 30.6%, then oughtn't the flame burn with some green? Or maybe the other salts get deposited on the sides of the vial as the seawater is used?

If the Na is being vaporized then I don't think we would expect any other ion in the water to do the same. Different frequencies would affect different ions.

Then again, this very well could just be electrolysis where the Na is being made into a catalyst somehow. But there's no electrodes :\



~modest

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by modest

I'm looking around blogs and whatnot and I can't find anyone saying the same. But, it does seem to me that a reasonable explanation would be the sodium vaporizing. If the radio waves are at a frequency that excited the sodium much like microwaves do water then it seems at least reasonable.

I'm counting on your specific chem knowledge, as mine generally draws a vacuum. Knowing the frequency is important I agree. Any idea what that Sodium frequency might be theoretically? I'd like to know how the temperature varies in the test liquid.

Originally Posted by Modestico

One thing is certain. That flame is not clear or even blue like you would expect hydrogen. Also, if it is then has he collected it? Why not fill up a balloon and see what's there? I can't find a claim that he's done that which seems suspicious

So obvious an observation of hidden in plain view, that I'm still dazzled by it. Not sure what you mean by 'see what's there', but to blow up a balloon you have to pressurize the collected gas and that is a bomb/fireball waiting to go off if it is HHO. (It would be H_2: O_1 wouldn't it? Here's where I get wobbly. . )

Originally Posted by Modesterner

I don't know though. I'm probably wrong about this. I haven't looked to much into it... Just read a couple blogs.

If the Na is being vaporized then I don't think we would expect any other ion in the water to do the same. Different frequencies would affect different ions.

Then again, this very well could just be electrolysis where the Na is being made into a catalyst somehow. But there's no electrodes :



~modest

No, I think you're probably right. This is a garage experimenter on a TV report in a time when everyone is all agog about Hydrogen fuel. This is a cool effect, but 'Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do!". Noot brought up the good point that without electrodes and an electric current, this isn't technically electrolysis, but without measuring the fluid for current there's no declaring it so.

Isn't there a chemical calculation that gives a range of energy needed to disassociate chemical bonds? I don't have a good understanding/picture of what atoms are doing when things are in solution.

The game is afoot Dr. Modest!

[Nitack]

Originally Posted by modest

I don't think that's a hydrogen flame. The color of the flame is yellow - exactly what you'd expect burning sodium metal to look like. Hydrogen burns clear. The fact that it needs salt would support that something is happening with the sodium.

That's really interesting. Would anyone mind if I split this into the chemistry forum?

~modest

Check this picture out.

It is from the Wikipedia page for Sodium, with the caption

The flame test for sodium displays a brilliantly bright yellow emission due to the so called "sodium D-lines" at 588.9950 and 589.5924 nanometers.

Does this flame look the least bit familiar?

So, we have a good observation from Modest that there is a high likelihood that sodium is present in the flame. What happens when pure sodium is dropped in water?

2 Na + 2 H2O => 2 NaOH + H2

Hydrogen gas is a byproduct of the reaction. So the claim that they are burning hydrogen gas is entirely plausible, there is just a little sodium mixed in.

Originally Posted by Turtle

No, I think you're probably right. This is a garage experimenter on a TV report in a time when everyone is all agog about Hydrogen fuel. This is a cool effect, but 'Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do!". Noot brought up the good point that without electrodes and an electric current, this isn't technically electrolysis, but without measuring the fluid for current there's no declaring it so.

Did he just call me "Noot"?

Originally Posted by modest

If the Na is being vaporized then I don't think we would expect any other ion in the water to do the same. Different frequencies would affect different ions.

Then again, this very well could just be electrolysis where the Na is being made into a catalyst somehow. But there's no electrodes :



~modest

Now I am doing a lot of wondering given the sodium observation by Modest. When a large chunk of sodium is dropped in water you get a very visible and violent reaction. You would get the same reaction, but microscopic, if NA were added atom by atom to water. Perhaps the radio waves are not loosening the H2O bond in water that the inventor speculates, but actually causing a reaction with the NaCl.

Its been years for me since I took chemistry, but here is my rough equation:

NaCl + H2O + Radio Wave Frequency X => Na + HCl + H2O => NaOH + H2 + HCl

If the process continued to completion I think at that point where you would see a further reaction back to salt and water. NaOH is commonly known as Lye, a basic solution, and HCl is hydrocloric acid. Together they react to form water and salt.

It appears that this would be a never ending cycle if you kept the radio waves going, although eventually you would run out of hydrogen as it would be constantly escaping... So I managed to lose myself. Because I can't quite see what the end result is...

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Turtle

... Since the fella is using seawater in at least one of his demonstrations, and since chlorine is 55% of seawater salt vs. sodium @ 30.6%, then oughtn't the flame burn with some green? Or maybe the other salts get deposited on the sides of the vial as the seawater is used?

In high school, me and a friend set up a chemistry experiment where we burned chlorine in a hydrogen atmosphere. It produces an opaque, milk-white flame.

Of course, burning hydrogen in chlorine would work the same.

[modest]

Originally Posted by Turtle

Any idea what that Sodium frequency might be theoretically?

Google tells me 26.452 MHz. Nuclear magnetic resonance is described on wiki:

Nuclear magnetic resonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But I honestly haven't looked at that yet.

Originally Posted by Turtle

So obvious an observation of hidden in plain view, that I'm still dazzled by it. Not sure what you mean by 'see what's there',

Ideally, he could collect a bit and take it to his nearest university where any one of a hundred kids could do som spectroscopy and tell him exactly what he has produced there. Is it a perfectly stoichiometric mix of or maybe there's no oxygen? But, I would just be interested to know if this stuff burns apart from the apparatus. I know this seems trivial, but stuff acts weird in an EM field.

It's been over a year since this guy did these videos and there's no reason he wouldn't have many more answers than he has given.

Originally Posted by Turtle

but to blow up a balloon you have to pressurize the collected gas and that is a bomb/fireball waiting to go off if it is HHO. (It would be H_2: O_1 wouldn't it? Here's where I get wobbly. . )

A normal sample size of either HHO or 2H2O2 would not be dangerous - no more dangerous than what he's doing on the videos.

Besides, for all the insistence of the implosion qualities of HHO, I don't think there is anyone actually stupid enough to fill a pressurized cylinder with the stuff.

Originally Posted by Turtle

No, I think you're probably right. This is a garage experimenter on a TV report in a time when everyone is all agog about Hydrogen fuel. This is a cool effect, but 'Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do!". Noot brought up the good point that without electrodes and an electric current, this isn't technically electrolysis, but without measuring the fluid for current there's no declaring it so.

I think we need to be careful in dismissing this too easily. I don't mean this would be or should be more efficient than normal electrolysis - I see no likelihood of that at all. Yet... something very interesting may be happening here.

An electric current or electrical conduction in the water would be most natural. It’s sitting in front of a EM field generator (presumably) - so that can easily force electrical conduction just like putting a fork in the microwave.

If you put neon or prosperous [edit: ?prosperous? ... "phosphorus" ] in front of a high frequency EM generator, it glows spectacularly. Iron in a field of a certain frequency will nearly (or completely?) melt which people thought was crazy when Tesla originally did it - but it's common electromagnetic induction heating now. So, I think there's room for something interesting here.

Originally Posted by Turtle

Isn't there a chemical calculation that gives a range of energy needed to disassociate chemical bonds?

The Nernst equation can be solved at different temps. The usual value given for water is 1.23 volts at 25 C, but that can be lowered using electrolytes or catalysts.

Originally Posted by Nitack

Check this picture out. Attachment 2438

It is from the Wikipedia page for Sodium, with the captionDoes this flame look the least bit familiar?

That is what I immediatly thought when I saw it. But now I'm reading this report:

Update:I talked on the phone to one of the scientists Ed Apsega at APV Engineering in Akron Oh. They tested John Kanzius process...

The yellow flame was the glass burning. (The flame started out clear.)

-blog on the topic

So, I don't know.

Originally Posted by Nitack

2 Na + 2 H2O => 2 NaOH + H2

<...>

Now I am doing a lot of wondering given the sodium observation by Modest. When a large chunk of sodium is dropped in water you get a very visible and violent reaction. You would get the same reaction, but microscopic, if NA were added atom by atom to water. Perhaps the radio waves are not loosening the H2O bond in water that the inventor speculates, but actually causing a reaction with the NaCl.

This is good thinking. I'm not sure how radio waves would force an electron to attach to the sodium, but I suppose if it did then it might look just like what's in the video. The sodium ion would turn elemental and react with the molecular water.

Once again, all he would have to do is a simple test of the water for the presence of NaOH to see if something like this is happening.

I can't help but think we're missing something simple and MB is gonna come in here and slap some sense into all of us

~modest

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Nitack

Did he just call me "Noot"?

My bad. I confused this conversation with another I was having with Nootropic; ergo, Noot. I meant to refer to you as 'Nit'.

Originally Posted by Modesteryian

think we need to be careful in dismissing this too easily. I don't mean this would be or should be more efficient than normal electrolysis - I see no likelihood of that at all. Yet... something very interesting may be happening here.

An electric current or electrical conduction in the water would be most natural. It’s sitting in front of a EM field generator (presumably) - so that can easily force electrical conduction just like putting a fork in the microwave.
...
This is good thinking. I'm not sure how radio waves would force an electron to attach to the sodium, but I suppose if it did then it might look just like what's in the video. The sodium ion would turn elemental and react with the molecular water.

Once again, all he would have to do is a simple test of the water for the presence of NaOH to see if something like this is happening.

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

In high school, me and a friend set up a chemistry experiment where we burned chlorine in a hydrogen atmosphere. It produces an opaque, milk-white flame.

Of course, burning hydrogen in chlorine would work the same.

The plot thickens. I was just joshin' inventor John ; I think this is an amazing bit of discovery and experimentation.

I watched the whole video again and have a couple observations. At time-point 3:17, John is holding a vial with a small amount of red liquid, but no explanation is in the naration. I also took note of his power panel on the RF generator at time-point 3:26; it goes from 0 - 1,400 watts in 200 watt increments. Unfortunately the panel isn't clearly visible when he turns it on.

So many chemicals & compounds in the mix here. First, we don't have simply Sodium here, we have Sodium Chloride don't we? Doesn't this matter to your discussions of how Sodium burns or otherwise reacts? In one run John adds Morton salt to, presumably, tapwater. Well the water is likely chlorinated and may also have Floride in it, and Morton salt has Sodium Ferrocyanide added as an anti-caking agent.

Then we have someone saying the glass is burning, and I have to say what kind of glass is it? Hardly a situation where we can make a reliable assessment of what is going on. I say we rush the lab!

That's all I got 'til I get some more coffee in me.