“Kanzius Effect” RF-induced flame from saltwater

[Nitack]

YouTube - Burning Salt Water!

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Nitack

YouTube - Burning Salt Water!

Uhmmm...that's cool and everything, but there is far more energy being used to generate the radio waves than the burning salt water is releasing. While this may have small scale specific applications where efficiency isn't important, this is no fuel source any more than the inumerable claims out there of running internal combustion engines on water. If it looks too good to be true, it is.

[Nitack]

Originally Posted by Turtle

Uhmmm...that's cool and everything, but there is far more energy being used to generate the radio waves than the burning salt water is releasing. While this may have small scale specific applications where efficiency isn't important, this is no fuel source any more than the inumerable claims out there of running internal combustion engines on water. If it looks too good to be true, it is.

I never claimed that it could violate the laws of thermodynamics. I just think it is fricking cool!

How about this though... The main issue we have with the hydrogen economy is the lack of an efficient way to separate the constituent atoms in water. This process causes the oxygen and hydrogen to split, what if it is more efficient than electrolysis?

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Nitack

I never claimed that it could violate the laws of thermodynamics. I just think it is fricking cool!

How about this though... The main issue we have with the hydrogen economy is the lack of an efficient way to separate the constituent atoms in water. This process causes the oxygen and hydrogen to split, what if it is more efficient than electrolysis?

If it was more efficient, that would be dandy, but given all the heat losses in the radio equipment I don't see it as likely. This guys process is electrolysis.

[Nitack]

Originally Posted by Turtle

If it was more efficient, that would be dandy, but given all the heat losses in the radio equipment I don't see it as likely. This guys process is electrolysis.

His process only uses radio waves, electrolysis by definition requires that an electric current be passed through the water you are separating. Maybe splitting hairs, but radio waves ≠ electrical current. Different forms of energy.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Nitack

His process only uses radio waves, electrolysis by definition requires that an electric current be passed through the water you are separating. Maybe splitting hairs, but radio waves ≠ electrical current. Different forms of energy.

Point well taken. Nonetheless, he is putting in more energy than he is getting out, as all such schemes must do. The Devil always gets his due.

[Nitack]

Originally Posted by Turtle

Point well taken. Nonetheless, he is putting in more energy than he is getting out, as all such schemes must do. The Devil always gets his due.

Ah, but how much more is he putting in, that is the relevant question.

Also, it only works with salt water, what is the role of the salt in the process?

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Nitack

Ah, but how much more is he putting in, that is the relevant question.

Also, it only works with salt water, what is the role of the salt in the process?

Judging by size of his equipment, I'd say a lot more.

Not sure on the salt, but I'm guessing it acts as a conductor just as in 'standard' electrolysis. From my own experiments using salt in the electrolyte, there is a lot of gunge left behind. Granted much of it comes from the electrodes which his system lacks, but I'd like to see a trial where the vial is run dry & examine what's left.

There is no end of Hydrogen-themed videos at YouTube; some great, some not so much. It's all misguided in my view, insofar as they mean to fuel vehicles with the gas. With electric cars using capacitors instead of batteries, it is a waste to use electricity to make Hydrogen to put in a fuel cell or tank.

What I'd like to see on YouTube from these folks is the bloopers when things go wrong.

[Nitack]

Originally Posted by Turtle

Judging by size of his equipment, I'd say a lot more.

Does the size of the equipment you use correlate to energy requirements?

Originally Posted by Turtle

Not sure on the salt, but I'm guessing it acts as a conductor just as in 'standard' electrolysis. From my own experiments using salt in the electrolyte, there is a lot of gunge left behind. Granted much of it comes from the electrodes which his system lacks, but I'd like to see a trial where the vial is run dry & examine what's left.

There is no end of Hydrogen-themed videos at YouTube; some great, some not so much. It's all misguided in my view, insofar as they mean to fuel vehicles with the gas. With electric cars using capacitors instead of batteries, it is a waste to use electricity to make Hydrogen to put in a fuel cell or tank.

I think you are actually missing a wonderful opportunity that hydrogen affords. What is the main argument against 100% solar energy? It only works half of the time because the sun goes down. However, if you are able to produce enough electricity to account for all of your needs (day and night) during those sunny hours, you can use that excess electricity to split hydrogen out of water to be used when the sun is not out. Hydrogen offers the opportunity to store your solar energy with out the need for expensive (not to mention toxic) batteries.

Originally Posted by Turtle

What I'd like to see on YouTube from these folks is the bloopers when things go wrong.

I would pay to see that

[modest]

I don't think that's a hydrogen flame. The color of the flame is yellow - exactly what you'd expect burning sodium metal to look like. Hydrogen burns clear. The fact that it needs salt would support that something is happening with the sodium.

That's really interesting. Would anyone mind if I split this into the chemistry forum?

~modest