[matrixscarface]

i have found out that they have been able to turn coal into oil... does anyone know how i could personally do this?

[zadojla]

I found this thread on Google, which contains several links to other sources of information. Some of them seem to have an agenda, though. At the bottom of the page, the author lists the Google search terms he used to find the info.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=324794

[UncleAl]

WWII Germany converted lignite (brown coal) to oil. South Africa with its SASOL process does much the same. Mobil ZSM-5 catalyst will turn methanol into high aromatics gasoline and by extension any source of carbon plus heat and steam. Bottom line: There is no economic replacement for petroleum as chemicals raw material.

Fat is so cheap that it makes biodiesel only costing two or three times as much as the real thing. If there were any demand for fat as fuel the price would skyrocket, as waste fat is well used as it is. Photosynthesis is very optimistically equivalent to producing 15 bbl/day-mile^2 of diesel fuel and ignoring all energy inputs. It requires 131,000 British thermal units (Btus) to produce one gallon of ethanol, which yields 77,000 Btus of fuel energy. That's a 70% net energy loss.

[Biochemist]

Originally Posted by UncleAl

It requires 131,000 British thermal units (Btus) to produce one gallon of ethanol, which yields 77,000 Btus of fuel energy. That's a 70% net energy loss.

UA- I have heard this stat before, and I am wondering if you could identify where the energy is (mainly) consumed in production. Is it distillation?

....Or does it include the usually-wasted solar energy input to photosynthesis?

[Qfwfq]

Originally Posted by Biochemist

....Or does it include the usually-wasted solar energy input to photosynthesis?

That's what I thought too. It would be more appropriate to talk of conversion efficiency.

It's easy to produce methane too, which gives less CO2 than ethanol.

[Fishteacher73]

Not that I am a spokesman for the petrolium industry, but one must realize that many things are made from that single barrel of oil. Once can crack the molecules to give various grades/types of petro-fuels as well as the many other uses of the byproducts such as plastics, etc.

I am not sure of the specific enegry costs of and returns on each of these, but it must at least make up a bit more thnt just examining only diesel fuel produced from a barrel of crude oil.

Humans have ALWAYS had VERY ineffecient fuels. Even our harnessing of nuclear power has a pretty low yield of the actual energy stored in atoms.

[Biochemist]

Originally Posted by Fishteacher73

Humans have ALWAYS had VERY ineffecient fuels. Even our harnessing of nuclear power has a pretty low yield of the actual energy stored in atoms.

True. I was just hoping that someone could confirm that reference on inefficiency of alcohol production. My ulterior motive is mainly political. Our midwest farmers are madly producing ethanol as a gasoline additive, because they are subsidized by the federal government. If they are consuming more fuel than they produce in doing so, it would ne nice to advertize that we are spending federal tax subsidies to throw away energy.

Not that I think the federal government is rational. It just would be nice to know the answer.

[Qfwfq]

Originally Posted by Biochemist

If they are consuming more fuel than they produce in doing so, it would ne nice to advertize that we are spending federal tax subsidies to throw away energy.

I really don't think so, Brazil has been producing ethanol from otherwise wasted crop bi-products for decades, to save energy. Many cars produced in Brazil have engines designed for ethanol so they don't run on an 80-20 mix, just pure alcohol.

[UncleAl]

Producing fuels from photosynthesis is insane - unless you can violate the laws of thermodynamics at will on a huge scale. Even Brazil with free land from chopping jungle, essentially free labor, and Third World minimal agriculture fuel-ethanoled itself into national bankruptcy.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases...hanol.hrs.html
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/d...ficinarum.html
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/d...um.html#Energy
Fuel ethanol bottom line

The most efficient uses of bio fuel burn corn in a stove designed to burn wood pellets. Heating with corn at $2.50 a bushel is the same as using $(US)0.64/gallon propane. The best deal is to burn the anhydrous ammonia fertilizer and not bother planting the corn. You must have a way to condense the exhaust and store the nitric acid for resale, and you have to keep it burning so it produces nitric acid and not merely nitrogen oxides. That one makes money. Barely."

[Biochemist]

Originally Posted by UncleAl

"...That one makes money. Barely."

Thanks, UA- A detailed, articulate response as always.