Replacing 'rare earths' in batteries?

[Eclipse Now]

Hi all,
as electric car systems roll out across the globe, especially the "Better Place" system which I think is a great business model and solves many technical problems (more on that below), I'm just wondering what nano-tech or chemical solutions are being found to the approaching problem of rare earth's getting far too rare? It looks like a form of resource nationalism has already hit rare earth's in China.

As hybrid cars gobble rare metals, shortage looms | U.S. | Reuters

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/01/bu...pagewanted=all

Now, below is my usual "copy and paste" rave about Better Place. I hope you enjoy. No, I don't have shares with them but just think they're the best hope we have of transitioning off oil, and because they are V2G (vehicle to grid) they can help stabilise power supply from intermittent power resources like wind etc.

For a long time the Electric Car market has been hampered by 2 things:
* the price of buying a new battery for $4000 every 2 or 3 years,
* the fact that a sudden 'fuel up' takes 4 or 5 hours. (No driving between Sydney and Melbourne in one hit!)

Better Place have solved that.
Better Place - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

* You buy the car, they maintain ownership of the battery.
* Many cars sit still 22 hours a day, so once charge points are installed everywhere you can charge at work, home, the shops or church.
* Automated battery swap stations swap out your battery faster than you can refill your conventional car with petroleum!
* But because charge points are everywhere, you'll swap out batteries far less than you refill your current petroleum car.
* The cars will be cheaper, faster, require less servicing, and be MORE convenient than gasoline/petroleum cars.
* They are creating international standards for all car companies to follow and participate in this model!
* These Better Place EV's will be V2G (Vehicle to Grid), and so can sell energy back to the grid. In effect, they will act as a significant battery for the intermittent power supply of wind and solar! 50,000 cars = 1 gigawatt of power available for "grid smoothing".
* the batteries sort of follow a Moore's law of their own and will become cheaper and more powerful.

[UncleAl]

1) How much does a battery pack weigh?
2) How fast does it self-discharge?
3) It still lasts the same interval. Do you think Better Place will eat the depreciation over time?
4) How many batteries need be in distributed inventory - and what does that cost up front?

[Moontanman]

I've given this thread some thought and I think I'll have to go with UncleAll on this one. I look at other things that are "exchanged" like propane tanks.

I had my own propane tank, it was well made and I kept it in good shape. When the places to get propane started getting few and far between I decided to use the tank exchange to get a tank of propane. The tank I got in exchange for mine was a cheep flimsy tank that had been rusted and was painted over to make it look new.

Often when the exchange thing starts the exchanged item is as cheep as possible. Low grade tanks now flood the market and I often have to go through several to find one that looks like it might be safe.

I would fear the battery exchange would be cheap unreliable batteries, for sure if you were out of town and stopped for am exchange you would get the worst of the lot they have because they would know you were not coming back.

Then there is, as UncleAl suggested, the weight problem. How big will battery have to be to contain as much energy as a tank full of gasoline? I'm betting a battery pack will weigh several hundred pounds at least and require machinery to exchange them. It will not be the same as changing the batteries in your flash light.

Even changing out the battery in your car takes more time than filling your gas tank, how much time will it take to change out a battery pack that large? The idea of exchanging battery packs would seem to be a large problem.

[Eclipse Now]

Guys, rare earths, remember?

As for the battery-swap, the "Better Place" name would be at stake! They have priced in the cost of replacing the battery every 3 to 4 years, and it is still as cheap as petrol at 60 cents a litre!

Not only that, but the CEO talked about the cost of the batteries goes down as performance goes up according to a Moore's law. Shai Agassi said that in a few years, if you lock in your agreed price / km transport for a 5, 6, or 7 year contract, he could visualise a situation where you sign the km's contract and they give you the car for FREE! (Because batteries are getting so cheap!)

As for the battery swap stations... watch this video of the world's first automated battery swap station in Tokyo where Better Place will be experimenting with the Taxi market next year!

Californian's will see Better Place charging points springing up all over the place and Battery Swap stations coming...

Video here.
Video: Better Place's automated electric vehicle battery switch station is faster than Melvin Dummar