Alternative fuels...how much longer

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

In my life time there have been several oil crisises.
In the short amount of time I've been driving (10 years in july) I've watched gas prices skyrocket from $0.65 to almost $3.00 per gallon.

During this time I've heard of various alternatives to petroleum bassed fuels. Guys that run their diesels on recycled veggie oil, moonshiners and racers runing alcahol in their cars, even a fellow who converted his Harley Davidson to run on veggie oil he reclaims from the grease traps at fast food resteraunts. I've also heard of water fueled engines in PopMechs.
I have no idea on how that one works. Other fuels in testing (as of a decade or so ago) phonebooks (Beyond 2000 what happened to that show I loved it?) hydrogen and methane.

Alot of years alot of tax as well as private money spent when do we the consumers get to see the results of all of this, how hard can it be to start mass production and mass distribution of veggie fuels? The pumps are already there the only thing being changed is the liquid that they are pumping. And with every new auto made in the last 15 years being fuel injected it would not be to hard to reprogram and modify the average vehicle to run on any of these fuels(x-ept for the water)!

[emessay]

The basic instinct problems which are complicated with 'basic survival of the economy fittest' :

1. When growth of world fossil-fuel car manufacturing plants and its related spare-parts -->collapsed-->then what will happen with all of related engines with wars demand / industries demand/ cars demand --> world economy foundation will also collapse--> By using strengthness & weakness analysis -->KEEP MAINTAIN FOSSIL-FUEL EVEN THE HIGHEST PRICE !!!!
2. Hybrid engines with battery driven and other alternatives --->threats---> would a capitalist be interested to develop in mass production ??
3.What's next the cheapy alternatives : bio-diesel, alcohol, gas, photo-voltaic, battery driven ?? By applying economy-demand law , the price would also increase !!

So what's the cheapy cheapy fuel in next future ???

.............Nuke fuel cell..................

[Boerseun]

Yep. Beyond 2000 was a pretty cool program, but I think after January 1st, 2000, their name became pretty redundant. A shame, really - I used to enjoy it a lot!

Alternative fuels is facing a bit of a dilemma now, seeing as the established energy vendors have invested trillions in the current refining and distribution networks, world-wide. It's in their short-term interest to squeeze the Earth to the very last drop of oil. What'll happen to the established energy giants after that last drop is burnt, is anybody's guess. They will keel over one after the other, unless they start investing heavily in alternative fuels RIGHT NOW. And paying for the refit of the current energy complex will be borne by the consumer at the pump, i.e. you and me.

The problem with refitting and converting the whole setup, is that all the energy vendors world-wide must come up with an international standard so that everybody's pulling in the same direction. For instance, a car bought in the States will run fine in Kenya without any modifications to the engine - they're both running on 93 octane unleaded, for instance. If the States decide to go hydrogen and Kenya decides to go converted diesel engine doing the vegetable oil bit, there'll be import/export issues, to name a few. They should agree on a standard, and make the best of it. Getting anybody to implement an international standard for anything is a bit tough.

Maybe SASOL should start sharing its technology based on the Fischer-Tropsch process, being the only energy vendor able to make petrol out of coal on a profitable basis. Known coal reserves will last another 300 years, if we start using it heavily to produce liquid fuel it'll go down to probably 100 years. But that's better than a total crash in 20 years, when the oil supply is expected to run out. Cleaner burning methods, fine-tuning the FT process etc. will minimise pollution whilst removing the Mid-East as our prime source of petrol (from oil). Reviving the coal business will resuscitate an almost dead British industry, creating jobs in the process. And it'll give us enough time to come to an agreement for an international alternative energy standard, and also give enough time to implement a parallel distribution network.

An analogue to implementation of a parallel distribution system is currently under way in South Africa, where cars, trucks and buses are converting en masse to running on liquid petroleum gas. LP gas runs virtually clean, leaves no carb deposits in engines, and runs further per litre on LP gas than on petrol. Your only penalty is losing approximately 3% power. But - LP gas is almost 50% cheaper per litre than petrol. The established energy vendors aren't happy - they're losing business. There's a lot of private gas merchants coming online now to fuel this alternative network - forcing established fuel stations to start hosting LP gas pums on their aprons as well. If this was a planned scenario, it would be running a heck of a lot smoother, but now that the LP gas distribution network is gathering shape and size, petrol is coming under heavy pressure to drop their price. In South Africa, we're paying through the nose for fuel, and the government blames it on high oil prices. The thing is, almost 80% of retail South African petrol is manufactured from coal, dug up locally and mixed with high-pressure steam and cracked into waxes, fertilizers and petrol via the Fischer-Tropsch process in refineries located on the Highveld. Such is SA's petrol production capacity from low-grade coal that we are currently exporting petrol to Botswana, Lesotho, Swaziland, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Malawi, Zambia, etc. - all from coal. So, as we all switch over to LP gas, SASOL is coming under heavy pressure to stop its criminal profit-taking, piggybacking on the lame excuse that oil is expensive. Nowhere does SASOL import oil from anywhere. Bastards.

Go gas, go coal!

Yes - I know - coal is a dirty resource. But so is oil. We need cleaner burning methods, better exhaust catalysts, etc. But in the long term, we'll eventually need an alternative. I'm not too sure about vegetable oil, though - we'll need to sacrifice huge tracts of land, millions of hectares to plant the proper plants, sunflowers etc., land that will be needed for agricultural production to feed the planet's exploding population.

[goku]

two problems with alternate fuels:
too much money in oil, and scientists
i could have almost any engine running on hydrogen for under 1000 dollars.
we've already had engines running on propane for years. instead of propane, put hydrogen in the tank.
problem solved. thank you, thank you. i don't like to boast, but i know i'm a genius.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

EMESSAY nuke fuel in cars I sure hope to god not!! As much as Stevie loves a big boom, But Stevie don't wanna be the big boom!!!!

And now for the twofer: as far as the diesel market no mods are required to run them on veg oils how much cheaper can you get?

As for the large tracts of land the world could use more greenspace particularly due to the fact that peolpe do not like to suffocate. Plants convert co2 to good ol 02 and all and therefore with our need to breath our vehicles need to breath and there being more of both every minute or so more green is a very good thing! Plus just think of all of the farmers that could finaly get off of govt. subsidys and the loan merrygorounds that they are on.

[Boerseun]

Originally Posted by goku

two problems with alternate fuels:
too much money in oil, and scientists
i could have almost any engine running on hydrogen for under 1000 dollars.
we've already had engines running on propane for years. instead of propane, put hydrogen in the tank.
problem solved. thank you, thank you. i don't like to boast, but i know i'm a genius.

Hydrogen is by far too expensive to produce to be a viable alternative in the short term.
Besides, as was mentioned on a different thread, hydrogen atoms is pretty difficult to contain, they basically escape through the material the container is made of.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

You guys ever seen (how to explain it?). There's a fellow ot there (saw him on the Discovery channel man I love that da-- channel. So much to see so much to learn PBS rocks too! ) made a battery out of solid nickel that stores hydrogen in pores within it and somehow stores electricity. Supposedly the hydrogen is held in such a manner that it could even do double duty as a bumper (so he claims) without going boom (exploding on impact for all of you science folks).

[Boerseun]

Originally Posted by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

You guys ever seen (how to explain it?). There's a fellow ot there (saw him on the Discovery channel man I love that da-- channel. So much to see so much to learn PBS rocks too! ) made a battery out of solid nickel that stores hydrogen in pores within it and somehow stores electricity. Supposedly the hydrogen is held in such a manner that it could even do double duty as a bumper (so he claims) without going boom (exploding on impact for all of you science folks).

Hydrogen's a pretty scary thing, once you get down to it.

I once mixed a hydrogen/oxygen flame until it was running sweetly, bent the tubes so's there's no flow, the flame died, and I pulled a plastic shopping bag over the nozzle. Opened the tubes and inflated the bag.

The bag wasn't under any pressure, not even the slightest, like a balloon, for instance. I dropped the bag on the concrete floor (after sealing it with a decent knot in the handles) and chucked a match at it.

Needless to say, I was deaf for the rest of the day and my ears buzzed for the rest of the week, but the scary thing was that it cracked the concrete floor into hundreds of pieces. I reckon the total mix was about five, maybe six litres of gas. Under ZERO pressure. Imagine what that sucker would've done, had it been pressurised some?

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Jumpin jiminy! were you just bored, curious, or suicidal?

Hydrogen can be a royal pain when it comes to metal working too. Particularly with Iron based alloys (steel etc.) hydrogen causes brittleness in the metal. Forcing the fabricator to perform post heat normalizing to prevent cracks and component failure.

[Boerseun]

Originally Posted by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

Jumpin jiminy! were you just bored, curious, or suicidal?

Hydrogen can be a royal pain when it comes to metal working too. Particularly with Iron based alloys (steel etc.) hydrogen causes brittleness in the metal. Forcing the fabricator to perform post heat normalizing to prevent cracks and component failure.

Probably curious, I guess. It was a couple 'o years ago.

My next project is to rig up a 6m length of 5-inch steel pipe. Plug it at the back, and lift the other end at a decent angle. Stabilize the tube with a proper structure, and wrap steel reinforcement along the length of the pipe.

Drop a bag full of the same optimal hydrogen/ogygen mix down the tube, and see how far I can shoot a frozen chicken. I guess about 200-250 meters.

Life can get pretty boring down on the farm.