Do you believe in miracles?

[Tormod]

There is a cool article on miracles in New Scientist online:

Opinion: Do you believe in miracles? - opinion - 05 August 2009 - New Scientist

So I figure it's a cool topic for a poll. Simply: Yes or no.

And discuss below.

[pamela]

a definition of terms according to dictionary.com

1. an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
2. such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.
3. a wonder; marvel.
4. a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality: a miracle of modern acoustics

hmmmn i have often used the word miraculous to describe certain events in my life that seemed extrordinarily unusual. For example,
last year, my son incurred a whopping 6600.00 bill for a "vacation" due to his explosive behaviour.Being unemployed and strapped for cash, i attempted to work out a payment plan with the hospital for monthly payments.Within a few days, i received a letter stating that my balance was now zero and no payment needed to be remitted. For all intensive purposes, that was a miracle for me. To look at it objectively though, there are monies available to pay these costs.Nothing supernatural about it.The miracle was however, that it happened to me
based upon number three listed above that was indeed a wonder and a marvel

[freeztar]

Excellent article. Thanks for the link.

I have not voted yet. Either answer has its own set of problems and I'm not comfortable with either yet.

From the article:

So some people might think of "miracles" as particular juxtapositions of events, each of which has a correct and acceptable scientific explanation. This might be nonsensical, but it would be interesting to discover wherein the nonsense lies. We should be open not only to possible observations and experiences that might dislodge some of our accepted theories but to thoughts and ways of thinking that may challenge our notion of what acceptable theories and explanations can be like.

I whole-heartedly agree with this and this makes me want to answer "yes". But then the paragraph continues...

We deceive ourselves if we imagine science has established that only scientific explanations are valid or that scientific explanations can take only one particular form.

This makes me want to answer "no". Why is that deceiving ourselves? Why would the author use the term "if we imagine science". That's not the best way to sum up the article, imho.

So, I'm still on the fence, and will be as long as "miracle" is so ambiguous. (thanks for the deinition Pam - yet, I think the common usage usually implies supernatural, as the author mentions)

[pamela]

Originally Posted by freeztar

So, I'm still on the fence, and will be as long as "miracle" is so ambiguous. (thanks for the deinition Pam - yet, I think the common usage usually implies supernatural, as the author mentions)

i think the lines get blurred at times and hence the definition. For example, this past spring my father had a stroke. The MRI clearly showed not only a blockage but a bend in the carotid artery as well.Two days later upon the second scan for surgery evaluation, both the blockage and the bend were no longer present.The likelihood of this occurring within two days and the meds given, was not feasible.But yet the scans spoke for themselves.Would you consider this a super-natural ability of the body to heal itself?
at present there is no reasonable explanation due to lack of knowledge, but that does not mean that one does not exist.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by pamela

Would you consider this a super-natural ability of the body to heal itself?

Well, that raises another semantic quandry. What is "natural"? (don't worry - as much as I want to, my soapbox is safely tucked away in the garage)

The body is capable of amazing things. Some might call it "miraculous".
But what does that really mean? It is a marvel? A wonder?
Ok, I'm cool with that. Let's call your father's experience a wonder, or even a marvel.

Originally Posted by dictionary.com

–noun
6. something strange and surprising; a cause of surprise, astonishment, or admiration: That building is a wonder. It is a wonder he declined such an offer.
7. the emotion excited by what is strange and surprising; a feeling of surprised or puzzled interest, sometimes tinged with admiration: He felt wonder at seeing the Grand Canyon.
8. miraculous deed or event; remarkable phenomenon.

Originally Posted by dictionary.com

–noun
1. something that causes wonder, admiration, or astonishment; a wonderful thing; a wonder or prodigy: The new bridge is an engineering marvel.
2. Archaic. the feeling of wonder; astonishment.

But in all my experience, a "miracle" implies wonder that is not only inexplicable, but also connotative of the supernatural (ie spirits, mystical forces, etc.). Of course it can be used without such connotation. "It's a miracle I didn't encounter traffic today". But more often, I would wager, it carries an embedded implication of "spirit" as the catalyst.

Hence the semantic quandry...

At present there is no reasonable explanation due to lack of knowledge, but that does not mean that one does not exist.

[Turtle]

i voted no. to quote a vulgar colloquialism, shit happens. if you don't believe me, just ask me. the problem with probabilities, a miracle being an 'unlikely' event and so probabilistic in nature, is that we over-estimate our comprehension of them while at the same time mis-applying that misunderstanding in making decisions. moreover, probability takes no account of the property of emergence and so those events we witness that cannot be predicated/predicted on the basis of observing existing phenomena, have no probability pre-figured/considered to judge against and so such emergent events appear as miraculous.

[pamela]

i find the Turtle to truly be a miraculous creature possessing a supernatural ability to make me laugh

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by pamela

i find the Turtle to truly be a miraculous creature possessing a supernatural ability to make me laugh

It's just in the garage. I can go get it and dust it off with some palmolive.
Right. Off I go...

[pamela]

and of course let's pay homage to that frozen star phenomena surpassing all reasonable human knowledge able to sear thru clear to my heart bestowing upon me the most divine of wisdom

okay back on topic

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by pamela

and of course let's pay homage to that frozen star phenomena surpassing all reasonable human knowledge able to sear thru clear to my heart bestowing upon me the most divine of wisdom

Aww shucks...you're just sayi..

okay back on topic

..ng that.

Right...ahem...

As best I can see it, miracles do occur simply because we use that word to describe "miraculous" events. Whether or not any other connotation of the word is given, we still associate the word with things that are ineffable. But, this cuts straight to the heart of Turtle's argument above. Ineffability is dictated by ignorance, in a nutshell.

So, I'm going to take a strong stance here and have a chat with Webster-Merriam. Let's do away with "miracles", shall we?