[Lancaster]

Ooh, here's a link. Yeah, another thread would be best to continue this.

[Fatstep]

Originally Posted by TheBigDog

I think it will be tough to find people who do not believe in evolution at all. Natural selection has been very well established. The missing question is "Do you believe that evolution by itself is responsible for all living things?". I can answer "no" to that without hesitation.

Look at wild dogs. They come in a couple of basic shapes and sizes. But in just a few thousand years over a hundred distinct breeds of dogs have come into being, of all sorts of shapes, sizes, temperments, talents and abilities. These did not evolve. They were engineered by man through selective breeding. Same deal with housecats and agriculture. Now with genetic engineering we can accellerate our ability to do this. This is not evidence of intelligent design of man, it is evidence of intelligent design by man - of dogs, cats and roses, tomatoes, oranges, cows, pigs, etc. It is not evidence of divine intelligence, it is evidence of man's intelligence.

Bill

I agree...

I believe species evolve, but I do not believe in darwinism

[Lancaster]

Originally Posted by Fatstep

I agree...

I believe species evolve, but I do not believe in darwinism

Please explain. Do you mean that you do not believe in natural selection but do believe in evolution? They're pretty much mutually inclusive.

[Larv]

Originally Posted by Lancaster

Please explain. Do you mean that you do not believe in natural selection but do believe in evolution? They're pretty much mutually inclusive.

Lancaster, if it would help to maintain this forum's organizational integrity I could open a new thread under the Biology forum and call it "Evolution: Theory or Fact?" or "Causes of Evolution." I'll await a directive on this.

Meanwhile, it may be useful here to consider the known causes (disequilibrium factors) of evolution. There is a handy way to do this. I've listed below those conditions underwhich evolution would NOT occur:

1. No mutations occur in a population's gene pool.

2. The size of a population remains large enough to avoid random genetic drift, which could produce either "the founder effect" or the "bottleneck effect."

3. Alleles are neither lost nor gained by a population.

4. All individuals of a population have equal access to mating partners.

5. All individuals of a population reproduce with equal success.

(Evolutionary biologists regard only #5 as Darwinian natural selection; the others, even #4, are not considered selective.)

Now, of course, populations are not always able to maintain all of the aforementioned conditions to prevent evolution. Thus they may evolve by way of random mutations (1), random genetic drift (2), gene flow (3), disproportionate mating (4), and disproportionate reproduction (5). Note also that natural selection (5) may or may not enhance the process of evolution by acting on the consequences of (1) through (4).

One more thing: the microevolution of dog breeds carried out by humans involves artificially inducing one or more of the natural causes of evolution.

—Larv

[Fatstep]

Originally Posted by Lancaster

Please explain. Do you mean that you do not believe in natural selection but do believe in evolution? They're pretty much mutually inclusive.

I believe this; Darwin noticed how things happened around him and named them certain events, such as natural selection. Natural selection is 'only the fittest survive' right? When two animals compete for mates the stronger one wins, and because the stronger genes are passed along the ones that weren't up to par do not continue in the gene pool. I believe that happens, simply because it makes sense and it happens every day in plain sight.

I do not believe in evolution in the darwinian sense. I do not believe we all started as a volatile mixture of elements and somehow were forced by energy into simple amino acids, carbohydrates, proteins etc. To put it bluntly, I believe in God, and I believe in Science.
I in a sense believe in Ocaam's Razor. Whatever seems the simplest was probably what happened, with all of the infinite number of things that could have been, but we got them perfect in our universe, I believe God is the simplest answer, and he placed everything on earth for us to investigate and all of the sciences that say there aren't a God are just ways to test faith. Will they be enough to disprove God, or will people decide to put them aside and believe in God first of all and sceince secondly.


SORRY, I got onto a little tirade on religion.

[Lancaster]

Originally Posted by Fatstep

I believe this; Darwin noticed how things happened around him and named them certain events, such as natural selection. Natural selection is 'only the fittest survive' right? When two animals compete for mates the stronger one wins, and because the stronger genes are passed along the ones that weren't up to par do not continue in the gene pool. I believe that happens, simply because it makes sense and it happens every day in plain sight.

I do not believe in evolution in the darwinian sense. I do not believe we all started as a volatile mixture of elements and somehow were forced by energy into simple amino acids, carbohydrates, proteins etc. To put it bluntly, I believe in God, and I believe in Science.
I in a sense believe in Ocaam's Razor. Whatever seems the simplest was probably what happened, with all of the infinite number of things that could have been, but we got them perfect in our universe, I believe God is the simplest answer, and he placed everything on earth for us to investigate and all of the sciences that say there aren't a God are just ways to test faith. Will they be enough to disprove God, or will people decide to put them aside and believe in God first of all and sceince secondly.


SORRY, I got onto a little tirade on religion.

Wait...You think that the simplest answer is that an almighty, all knowing, all powerful super being who lives in another dimension yet is all around us, who created everything, who has always existed, has no sense of time or perspective, who is eternal, who listens to the prayers of mortals from a seat of clouds surrounded by humanoid figures with bird wings growing out of their backs, and who can never possibly be fathomed by the human mind, caused us to come to life?

[Fatstep]

According to quantum physics, if I have it right...

There iss an infinite number of universes where every possible combination of everything is happening, I may have that wrong, but according to that then it encases a God aswell.

By the way, yes.

[Lancaster]

Originally Posted by Fatstep

According to quantum physics, if I have it right...

There iss an infinite number of universes where every possible combination of everything is happening, I may have that wrong, but according to that then it encases a God aswell.

By the way, yes.

Following your logic, there also exists a universe containing a monster made out of spaghetti that created all life and sits on a throne made of clouds surrounded by humanoids that have your hypography username tattooed on their chests in pink ink, and you should worship him because of this.

See what I mean?

[Buffy]

Because certain people can't follow directions, this thread is closed until some people can find another thread to argue in.

Those who should be ashamed of themselves are obvious to all.

Thanks to those who *tried*,
Buffy

[Buffy]

Administrative note to fans of this thread:

Larv has opened the thread Evolution: Theory or Fact? in addition to the thread he opened earlier, Belief, Faith, Truth, and Science

...and Fatstep has opened the thread Evolution vs. Creationism

...for your debating pleasure.

Will reopen this thread when everyone has had a chance to notice this and move their discussions there.

Thanks to Larv and Fatstep!

Decorum du Jour,
Buffy