[nemo]

Tinny, you might consider researching either of the two major Linux desktop platforms, GNOME or KDE for solid examples of open-source frameworks allowing individuals to contribute their applications - each application being both unique and completely integrateable to the desktop as a whole.

A better implementation of the .Net framework is the Mono Project, started by Ximian, bought by Novell, and currently maturing at an amazing rate (www.mono-project.com)

[alexander]

Actually, if you ask me, i'd say that the .NET framework stinks. I think that this is another one of Microsoft's hopeless attempts to separate itself from the rest of the market. Do you realize that programs written in any .NET language will only be able to run on the machines that run Windows with .NET platform installed. Although windows is for now the most commonly used OS, you will find that most hackers (meaning really good programmers) at home prefer Linux or Free BSD to any microsoft product. Also I think that C# and J# and VB .net (all) are going to die by not being used, with programmers moving away even from such language as Java and go more towards Python. I mean modern day hacker if given a choice between java and python would 99% of time choose python and would not use java unless they have to.
Anyways back to open-source, there was some talk from microsoft of developing an open scource OS, I dont know whether they will rewrite Longhorh again and make it open scource, but i shure hope that they do something to get themselves more towards linux. Throughout the years microsoft operating systems have been going more toward Macs. I think that they need to break away from their initial path and move more toward the future as seen by hackers, the least known, but most pushing it to the limit computer users...

[TINNY]

from alexander:

I think that this is another one of Microsoft's hopeless attempts to separate itself from the rest of the market. Do you realize that programs written in any .NET language will only be able to run on the machines that run Windows with .NET platform installed

Just like Flash animations can only be viewed if the plug-in is installed. but overtime, almost everybody now has the plug-in. this is probably because they want to view or use the animation. same thing with .net: when someone finds the programs are interesting, they will install the .net framework on the computer. just like flash player, it is free.

Also I think that C# and J# and VB .net (all) are going to die by not being used, with programmers moving away even from such language as Java and go more towards Python. I mean modern day hacker if given a choice between java and python would 99% of time choose python and would not use java unless they have to

why do you have to relate it to hackers all the time? From past experience, nothing beats the ease of use and user-friendliness of vb.net and c#.net . It's great when used with the visual studio .net editor. and added with the functionality of the code being able to be transferred on the internet (ASP.NET), it's unbeatable.

[alexander]

tinny said:

they will install the .net framework on the computer. just like flash player, it is free.

Well, Microsoft still hasnt developed a .NET framework for open scource OSs yet, there have been some headlines of them developing it, but i havent seen a version of one yet on the net.

why do you have to relate it to hackers all the time? From past experience, nothing beats the ease of use and user-friendliness of vb.net and c#.net ...
and added with the functionality of the code being able to be transferred on the internet (ASP.NET)

I relate to hackers because they are very good programmer, obviously you havent read the entire post because i clearly said that when i say hackers i mean an experienced and well known programmer. And as to easiness, i dont like VB especially .net, they make big programs run slowly, and as to ASP, that is probably the slowest running programming language on the net today, there are better ways of doing things than through ASP. Take PHP for example, or if you need the entire package go to JAVA which'll do everything; the inet interface and regular programs for you, and in this case Python which has its own web interface and you dont even need to switch languages in order to interface both with a network and you dont have noncompatability issues anywhere...
Why are you stuck on Microsoft products, there are better things in life then Windows...

[TINNY]

frankly, I'm not a serious programmer. Just doing fairly simple database programs and a few games here and then. so, vb.net, c#.net and asp.net would suffice. and I think a lot of people agree too. I can still make money part-time doing small applications for students who are doing some sort of project or factories that need to manage their resources. seriously, the only factor i take into consideration is ease of use, saves an awful lot of time. I think this is what propelled vb as the most widely used language in the world. Now, Microsoft has just gone a step further with OOP for vb.net and all the other jargon that I hardly understand or even bother. But in comparison, .net is a big improvement compared to vb and asp.

I dont bother about all those details with PHP and Java which everybody says is unbeatable. I just use what suits me best. so far, asp.net has the capabilities of PHP, plus the ease of use and my familiarity with vb

[TeleMad]

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I think that this is another one of Microsoft's hopeless attempts to separate itself from the rest of the market. Do you realize that programs written in any .NET language will only be able to run on the machines that run Windows with .NET platform installed
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Just like Flash animations can only be viewed if the plug-in is installed. but overtime, almost everybody now has the plug-in. this is probably because they want to view or use the animation. same thing with .net: when someone finds the programs are interesting, they will install the .net framework on the computer. just like flash player, it is free.

And .NET XML Web Services can be consumed by programs regardless of platform, an platforms are irrelevant for ASP.NET Web apps too. The restriction of Windows-only applies to Windows Forms applications, which are becoming the minority of apps ("everyone" is moving their apps to the web).

[geko]

Originally posted by: Freethinker
I use Mozilla, the open source version of Netscape, for browser. We have a red hat server operation in house for custom mysql database we are developing internally. I use Staroffice on my workstation.

I downloaded a copy of this mozilla browser after reading this (the firefox version) and my first impressions of it is, i'm going to keep using it. Not sure how to reprogram it with the open-source option, not even sure where this option is but hey, time will tell.

Is 'staroffice' an OS?

With regard to using other software not from MS (such as XP etc.,), will applications that say "Operating System = 95/98/me/2000/xp" run on other operating systems such as linux? Or is that what the open source thing is all about so you can program it to run what you like?

Just going to buy a new system soon and i want to get it all right this time (just trying to get as much knowledge as possible).

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: gekoWith regard to using other software not from MS (such as XP etc.,), will applications that say "Operating System = 95/98/me/2000/xp" run on other operating systems such as linux?

No software is usually platform dependent, so if it says "95/98/me/2000/xp" then that means windows only. Likewise, Mac applications will not run on Windows etc. Linux apps can often be compiled for different versions but it requires a bit of programming insight. Better stick with one version, like RedHat, and get apps that will work with it (there are literally tons of it).

Or is that what the open source thing is all about so you can program it to run what you like?

No, the open-source thing has nothing to do with operating systems, although an OS can be open source. An "open-source" software is usually free and can be changed by any programmer, as long as they follow the license with which the software has been released.

I'm sure FT et al can give more info on this.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: geko
I downloaded a copy of this mozilla browser after reading this (the firefox version) and my first impressions of it is, i'm going to keep using it.

Glad you like it. The onl real problem I have found in using a non-IE browser is the occasional site that is designed exclusively for IE. However that probelm is about to go away. The "special programming" used in those IE exclusive sites took advantage of certain internal "hooks" that linked IE with Windows OS itself. The same internal links that have become security nightmares for MS and IE. Now that those internal links are being shut off by MS (as in SP2) even IE won't work at IE only sites.

Meanwile it is a much better browser and is fully industry compliant as far as programming. ANd it's e-mail capablities far outshine Outlook Express and is far safer to use.

Not sure how to reprogram it with the open-source option,

Not relevant.

not even sure where this option is but hey, time will tell.

Let me explain what Open Source is.

Open source is a philosophy as much as anything. Software is obviously nothing more than code written to run on a computer. Someone has to sit down and write the code. Most of what the average consumer is familiar with is writen by companies. Such as Microsoft and all of it's software. It is written to sell as a profitable business model.

However a lot of higher level users would write little programs to help themselves out with specific tasks. In some more advanced environments these little programs would get passed around. The next guy might add to or improve the program. Or come up with a different one to compliment it.... In the more advanced computer segment some suppliers would put together a bundle of these programs and help pass them around at no charge. Just one batch of codeheads helping out their associates.

Now we are in a philosophical battle. Some of the Corp giants like Microsoft are using preditory practices to force people to use their programs no matter how poorly written the programs are. And they hide the actual program code to stop anyone else from redesigning it. So this group of personally dedicated coders put in their own efforts to write competitive programs and offer them free of charge. This is collectively known as "Open Source". The "source code", the basic programming code is available free of charge and published "openly" for anyone that wants to not only use, but to redesign the code to fit more specific needs.

So let's say you are buying a batch of compueter hardware. Perhaps a x86 based system. That would be AMD or Intel processors that would often be associated with MS Windows. But you have not only the hardware costs, but the software costs. With Open Source programs you can buy the hardware and get all the software you need for it for free.

Frankly the Open Source software does not currently offer as wide of a range of programs as Widows does. And there are some compatiblity issues, such as full compatibility with an XL spreadsheet or WORD document. There is nothing in Open Source which will do a Power Point presentation. Plus there is the question of the business model. If the software is free, who will write it if they are not paid?

The business model for Open Source is usually "support". e.g. we as an IT company might set up an Open Source system for a company. They don't pay for the SOFTWARE, but they pay us to make it work for them. Thus we may write some utility or modify some existing code to do something specific. So we make it availaible to the Open Source community in exchange for others doing the same.

Ultimately this provides a reduced overall cost to the end user and software written with the intent of making it the best rather than the most profitable.

Is 'staroffice' an OS?

[geko]

Thanks for the explanation of open-source - i had totally the wrong idea.

Originally posted by: Freethinker
So let's say you are buying a batch of compueter hardware. Perhaps a x86 based system. That would be AMD or Intel processors that would often be associated with MS Windows. But you have not only the hardware costs, but the software costs. With Open Source programs you can buy the hardware and get all the software you need for it for free.

This is what im intending to do. Build the comp from the ground up. I'd really want it "clean" when i get it so i can install and build it up as i like. So much crap comes with windows (not sure what this crap is but know it's there ). XP requires a 1/4 gig stick of ram for arguments sake just to run the thing i believe - how annoying is that.

The trouble is that some of the applications/software that i want to use say that it requires the OS to be some form of windows. I play the command and conquer series for an example (games) and from a quick look at them they all state they need an MS OS.

....what i can see from the explanations we're stuck at the mo with MS OS'?

I'm even thinking about buying it clean and installing '98 on it, but then i run into the trouble with future (and even some now) applications and software requiring a new version of windows.

But...

The business model for Open Source is usually "support". e.g. we as an IT company might set up an Open Source system for a company. They don't pay for the SOFTWARE, but they pay us to make it work for them. Thus we may write some utility or modify some existing code to do something specific. So we make it availaible to the Open Source community in exchange for others doing the same.

so i could, for arguments sake, buy the system clean and hire some guy like yourself to build me an OS? Which would then be able to run all the applications that I want (including software that as standard requires a MS OS)? viz [?]With Open Source programs you can buy the hardware and get all the software you need for it for free.

Is it 100's or 1000's for such a service?

Sorry if im seeming to be naive and ignorant but dont really know squat about software or programming yet - i seem to be spending all the time that i research computers on the hardware side.

Any links to info. (pdf's, DOC's etc) on software etc., that you dont mind spending the time to share?