Ice Circles?

[carlton-temple]

Pamela, if we keep going we could start our own "flickering-cluster"!

[pamela]

i like you carlton, not only do you make me laugh, but you make me think!!

Flickering Cluster Theory

The Flickering Cluster Theory is based on the idea that the liquid state can be considered to be a combination of the solid state and the gas state. In this concept, the solid phase particles, called short-range crystals, are suspended in a cloud of independent gas phase units of material.
The Boltzmann Distribution is a mathematical concept that describes the relationship between the kinetic energy of the particles in a system and the number of occurances of particles with specific kinetic energy values.
According to the Boltzmann Distribution, every system can be described as having high velocity particles and low velocity particles all present at the same time.

As a result of the random collisions of the particles within the system, the kinetic energy is always being rearranged. Therefore, particles are in continually exchange between high velocity and low velocity.
If the primary difference between the states of matter is the velocity of the particles, then it is logical to imagine that a liquid could consist of solids and gases.
Also, because of the continually exchange of velocity, solid particles can become gas particles, and gas particles can become solid particles.

A sample of gas is represented as a series of small blocks of solid state material, suspended in a cloud of gas phase.

The flickering cluster idea refers to the solid state ever changing its size and shape. This is a result of random collisions with gas phase units. Some slow moving units will collide with the clusters and become part of them. Some fast moving gas phase units will collide with clusters and knock pieces off of them. Thus, they are "flickering", or changing their appearances.


One of the most obvious aspects of liquids is their abilities to pour, or their fluidity. Have you ever observed a solid state substance that could pour?

If you have ever played with beach sand, then you have probably referred to pouring it out of a bucket. Notice that this is a situation in which solid particles are being poured. The process is allowed to take place because the grains of sand can "flow" over each other. They are not stuck together. Possibly a liquid is much like the solid sand, but even more so. If the crystals of solid are isolated from each other by the low friction gas phase, then the concept of pouring becomes even more noticeable.

So, yes, it is possible to pour a solid. There are only two requirements for the theory to work.

The solid particles must be quite small
They must not be attached to each other.
The flickering cluster theory takes both of these ideas to the extreme.

Liquid State: Flickering Cluster Theory

[carlton-temple]

Pamela, beware of spring impulsions!

Expanding our bonds so as to include quantics such as Boltsman* could considerably reduce the warmth of our so intimate icosahedral clustering, indeed our circle might even freeze.

P.S. *There's no sign as yet of entropy in our village town hall, maybe the 2nd law don't apply to (French) politics ?

[pamela]

okay, okay, that theory a little over the top for ya? how's this instead

At ambient temperatures, the icosahedral cluster equilibrium in water is shown rather idealistically in the equation (ESCS). Clearly complete clusters, without any pendant hydrogen bonding, are likely to be rarely, if ever, found. It should be noted that such a five or six (complete) shell cluster has 86% or 89% hydrogen bonding (respectively), approximately in line with that estimated by some in water . A dynamic range of partial structures (reducing the % hydrogen bonding) is expected together with extensive links to pendant molecules and other clusters (increasing the hydrogen bonding). A model, using the significant liquid structure theory, estimates an average of 20 water molecules per flickering cluster gives the best fit over a range of temperatures (0-100°C) [600]. As the hydrogen bonding flickers between arrangements, the stability of the expanded water dodecahedra (see below) will vary . An effectively-infinite number of arrangements (even a dodecahedral (H2O)20 cluster has 30026 symmetry-distinct hydrogen bond arrangements differing in energy by up to the equivalent of 40% of the hydrogen bond energies ) will be found with an extraordinarily complex potential energy surface; lower energy (more symmetrically arranged with smallest net overall and partial-cluster dipoles being more stable )d arrangements tending to expand whereas higher energy forms (more asymmetric with largest net dipoles being least stable) will pucker, so leading to the cluster flickering phenomena. If the range of energies for the dodecahedral (H2O)20 cluster is used for calculating the range of energies for the icosahedral (H2O)280 cluster, it is expected that differences in energy by up to the equivalent of 8% (40% x 60/20 x 20/280) of the hydrogen bond energies will be possible for differing hydrogen bond arrangements. As the temperature is lowered towards 0°C and below, it is expected that a greater degree of cluster completion is to be found, flickering between structural forms . There is likely to be a continuum of structures present. It is also possible that clusters can fuse together to form cylindrical clusters and cover surfaces.

Water cluster equilibria

[carlton-temple]

Pamela, I am pleased to see you shop at such sites as UK/WATER; however "simple" (water) clustering becomes much more exciting when foreign elements are introduced such as sodium (na+) or iron (fe lll). Try a dose of Britannica-water, the whole hydration atmosphere changes ! Ice circles rapidly thaw in interest compared to the implications "dirty-clustering" might play or have played in the promotion of animation.

[pamela]

someone else who thinks water is exciting!
But in all honesty, my concerns have been about consumption. Not in so much as what has been added, but what is currently there and not regulated. Any thoughts on this, Carlton?

[lemit]

But to get back to ice circles--and when I skim through this thread, I often see "icicles" or "ice cubes" instead, but I'm digressing too.

Now, to get back to ice circles, does anyone believe the video represents a natural phenomenon or a supernatural phenomenon? (I need to stop writing while I'm watching CSPAN. I initially made "natural" "national," which would have caused a whole different set of answers.)

And people contributing to this thread might be interested in my question on another thread about how many words we have for snow.

--lemit

[pamela]

I believe the circles are naturally occuring. Broken pieces of ice caught in some sort of a whirlpool. I believe it was Craig's post that made a lot to sense on the subject. As far as the words for snow, who do you mean by "we"? all peoples? The Inuit have a large number of words but it breaks down into a more definitive way, such as drifting snow, or falling snow,snowflake, etc

[stereologist]

I would vote for a natural phenomena. I think the ice shavings seen around the disc are just part of the process of cutting off ice forming on the edge of the disc. What I find so interesting is that the conditions have to be just right to freeze the surface, but not freeze so quickly that the disc connects to the surrounding ice.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by stereologist

I would vote for a natural phenomena. I think the ice shavings seen around the disc are just part of the process of cutting off ice forming on the edge of the disc. What I find so interesting is that the conditions have to be just right to freeze the surface, but not freeze so quickly that the disc connects to the surrounding ice.

I agree. Also, as Pam pointed out, I would think that an eddy (whirlpool) is a necessity.