Do plants make rain?

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by carlton-temple

Bacteria - plants - rain; one wonders if there may not be a symbiotic connection between certain host plants and their respective rain making bacteria involved ? See L.Margulis ect.

I guess that was what I was suggesting with the rider to my question (see post #1 ) "If so do they do it consciously?"
I had to look up Marguilis Wiki says

The underlying theme of endosymbiotic theory, as formulated in 1966, was interdependence and cooperative existence of multiple prokaryotic organisms; one organism engulfed another, yet both survived and eventually evolved over millions of years into eukaryotic cells. Her 1970 book, Origin of Eukaryotic Cells, discusses her early work pertaining to this organelle genesis theory in detail. Currently, her endosymbiotic theory is recognized as the key method by which some organelles have arisen (see endosymbiotic theory for a discussion) and is widely accepted by mainstream scientists. The endosymbiotic theory of organogenesis gained strong support in the 1980s, when the genetic material of mitochondria and chloroplasts was found to be different from that of the symbiont's nuclear DNA.[4]

In 1995, prominent evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins had this to say about Lynn Margulis and her work:
“ I greatly admire Lynn Margulis's sheer courage and stamina in sticking by the endosymbiosis theory, and carrying it through from being an unorthodoxy to an orthodoxy. I'm referring to the theory that the eukaryotic cell is a symbiotic union of primitive prokaryotic cells. This is one of the great achievements of twentieth-century evolutionary biology, and I greatly admire her for it.[5] ”

[edit] Theory of symbiotic relationships driving evolution
. . .
She opposes such competition-oriented views of evolution, stressing the importance of symbiotic or cooperative relationships between species.

Lynn Margulis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I just posted an article in the Terra preta sub forum in the "wee beasties" thread on the 1,000 different bacteria we have growing on our OUTSIDE.
We humans seem to be a symbiotic organism ourselves; alive with bacteria, in and out. The "soil" (a symbiotic organism if ever there was one) obviously has a symbiotic relationship with plants.
Can we push the envelope that little bit further and say plants have a symbiotic relationship with the clouds/atmosphere?

Perhaps it is time we asked Gaia for some help in reversing our desecration of the planet?- a new "cooperative relationship between species".

[Michaelangelica]

[quote]Where giant plants dare to grow

. . .
Species growing at the equator are around 30 times taller on average than those at high latitudes, they found.

Their analysis also shows that rainfall has a bigger influence on plant height than temperature or soil fertility.
. . .

Instead, the single best predictor of plant height was how much it rained during the wettest month of the year.
"It might seem obvious that plants are taller in the tropics, a. . .

"However, there are plenty of tropical ecosystems that are dominated by short plants, such as savannas, and plenty of high-latitude ecosystems that are dominated by very tall plants, such as boreal forests."
. . .
"Instead there turns out to be a remarkable scarcity of very short plants in very warm, wet, productive environments like rainforests."

"We hadn't predicted this

What's more, she points out, the tallest plants in the world do not grow in the tropics.

BBC - Earth News - Where giant plants dare to grow

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

[stereologist]

Big plants can be determined by various measures: height, volume, and diameter. There are 3 separate trees for each of these biggest categories. One is a redwood, another a sequoia, and the third is a Montezuma cypress. None of these is in the tropics.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by stereologist

Big plants can be determined by various measures: height, volume, and diameter. There are 3 separate trees for each of these biggest categories. One is a redwood, another a sequoia, and the third is a Montezuma cypress. None of these is in the tropics.

Yes agreed
I am not really sure what the article/research/survey is trying to say.

[stereologist]

"Instead there turns out to be a remarkable scarcity of very short plants in very warm, wet, productive environments like rainforests."

A young northern forest has trees so close that it is too dark to have much growing under it. As the forest increases in size, the density of trees decreases and shorter plants such as ferns begin to grow under the canopy.

There are so many different measures of abundance that I wonder what was done.

[maikeru]

Originally Posted by carlton-temple

Bacteria - plants - rain; one wonders if there may not be a symbiotic connection between certain host plants and their respective rain making bacteria involved ? See L.Margulis ect.

I don't think it's symbiotic so much as it is a positive feedback loop that's beneficial for both. More plants, more bacteria, more water. This is unrelated to plants making the weather, but it is related to how plants can drive and sustain beneficial positive feedback loops, and may give a sense of how they could do something similar with promoting rain:

Darwin’s Mystery Of Appearance Of Flowering Plants Explained

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by stereologist

A young northern forest has trees so close that it is too dark to have much growing under it. As the forest increases in size, the density of trees decreases and shorter plants such as ferns begin to grow under the canopy.

There are so many different measures of abundance that I wonder what was done.

Yes, I was a bit shocked when I first visited the deep north and saw this for the first time.
I was really primordially scared in a dark English Oak forest. A bit like the primordial fear/shock when a bit of seaweed wraps around your leg when surfing. No wonder all those Grimm tales of forests. No wonder we have spent 12,000 years chopping them all down (I was also shocked by the lack of trees in GB --and Europe). Evey time i see the Scottish Highlands on TV I want to race over there and plant trees in the barrenness.


Here Eucalyptus /'Gums' reflect, scatter and shimmer the light. There is lots of light on the forest floor. The light is very different here.
the "Blue Mountains" are blue because of the amount of Eucalyptus oil in the air. From a distance, the mountains are a 'blue' colour.
Some Mediterranean trees like Olives also let in lots of light. Cottage gardeners love these as they can grow sun loving cottage garden annual favorites like pansies, foxglove, etc., under the trees.

[Turtle]

seems not all raindrops are created equal...erhm...created equally.

Myth of raindrop formation exploded - physics-math - 20 July 2009 - New Scientist

Originally Posted by Colin Barras

Myth of raindrop formation exploded
The short lifetime of a raindrop is a complicated and explosive affair, physicists have revealed. Using high-speed video footage they have solved a longstanding conundrum of what determines the size of raindrops.

A century ago, physicists put out sheets of absorbent paper in showers to record raindrop size, and discovered a surprising variety. Most are under a millimetre across, but others span 5 mm – and providing rainfall level is constant, drops exhibit the same variation in every shower. ...

it's not clear from the article if all the drops made in the explosions have particles in them, whether from plants or otherwise.

[Michaelangelica]

August 4, 2009
. . .

. . .

A biogeochemical cycle is a pathway by which a chemical element, such as carbon, or compound, like water, moves through Earth's biosphere, atmosphere, hydrosphere and lithosphere.

In effect, the element is "recycled," although in some cycles the element is accumulated or held for long periods of time.

Chemical compounds are passed from one organism to another, and from one part of the biosphere to another, through biogeochemical cycles.

Water, for example, can go through three phases (liquid, solid, gas) as it cycles through the Earth system. It evaporates from plants as well as land and ocean surfaces into the atmosphere and, after condensing in clouds, returns to Earth as rain and snow.

Researchers are discovering that biogeochemical cycles--whether the water cycle, the nitrogen cycle, the carbon cycle, or others--happen in concert with one another. Biogeochemical cycles are "coupled" to each other and to Earth's physical features.

"Historically, biogeochemists have focused on specific cycles, such as the carbon cycle or the nitrogen cycle," said Tim Killeen, NSF assistant director for geosciences. "Biogeochemical cycles don't exist in isolation, however. There is no nitrogen cycle without a carbon cycle, a hydrogen cycle, an oxygen cycle, and even cycles of trace metals such as iron."

. . .

. . .



"Seemingly subtle chemical changes may have large effects," said Cole.

"Consider that global climate change is caused by increases in carbon dioxide and methane, gases which occupy less than ½ of one percent of the atmosphere. Now more than ever, we need a comprehensive view of Earth's biogeochemical cycles."
. . .

Details about the ESA CBC sessions may be found by visiting the links below.

nsf.gov - National Science Foundation (NSF) News - Earth's Biogeochemical Cycles, Once in Concert, Falling Out of Sync - US National Science Foundation (NSF)

[Michaelangelica]

Cloud seeding works! -using CO2 NO2 (short video)
(In some places at some times)
Catalyst: Cloud seeding - ABC TV Science

I wonder if forest fires would warm cold clouds and provide the nucleus-particle to facilitate rain?
Perhaps in the right place at the right time?