Do plants make rain?

[Michaelangelica]

Do plants make rain?
If so do they do it deliberately and intelligently?

A popular science book (Dr Karl) here, talks about about the different rainfall patterns on either side of the rabbit-proof fence in WA.
One side is wheat farm the other scrubby bush. There is more rainfall on the scrubby bush side

I thought I read somewhere that plants exude chemicals that float up into the clouds and help "seed" rainfall.
I am sure I have read that plant chemicals help produce rainfall in the Amazon.
In fact, I am sure I read that scientists could tell were the rain formed by analysing the chemicals in the fallen rain.
I can't find that article now



I did come across this

As already mentioned, nuclei are essential for the condensation of water from the air, either in form of dew or of rain, but it is no0t yet clear how a nucleus is to be understood and how it works. Aitken invented a simple apparatus by means of which the nuclei present in the air could be counted, and which showed that their number is not increased by blowing coal, coke, or ordinary dust into the air.

Sometimes a difference is made between solid dust particles and hygroscopic substances in the air, but one cannot see why, e.g., a calcium chloride particle suspended in more or less humid air should be more hygroscopic than a carbon particle under the same circumstances. One would rather attribute a different effect of a nucleus and an ordinary particle to a different electric potential. However, this will not be further discussed at present.

from the same article

One process of making rain may be mentioned, because it is not well known, and is supposed to be effective, though it has not been studied scientifically. Some of the northern parts of Mexico consist of desert-like plains, partly overgrown with cacti.
Under certain conditions, which appear to be great heat, no wind, and a cloudless sky, the Indians set the cacti afire, thus creating a tremendous heat. After a very short time a downpour of rain sets in, which lasts for a few minutes only.
This is the description given to the author, and if true the explanation may be that the heat of the fire pushes wet layers of the air higher up, that they get cooled beneath the dew point and drop their water in the form of rain.

Wolf Klaphake: "Practical Methods for Condensation of Water from the Atmosphere" ~ Proc. Soc. of Chemical Industry of Victoria (Australia) 37: 1093-1103 (1936)
So the heat, or do the cacti have special nuclei ?

I can' get to this article
Access : More plants make more rain : Nature News

Airborne bugs make rain and snow
Airborne bugs make rain and snow (ABC News in Science)

So the heat, or do the cacti have special nuclei ?

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Do plants make rain?

Plants contribute both water vapor & particulates, but more is necessary to have rain. I recall just the other day hearing a meteorologist say that all rain starts as snow, but before parroting it here I went checking. I found this most excellent & succint explanation, which speaks for itself.

source

Originally Posted by Paul

" Does rain start off as snow or hail and then melt on the way down?"

It most cases, yes. This is a process known as the Bergeron-Findeisen process. In most area's of the earth the clouds grow high enough to reach area's where the temperature is below the freezing point of water. Bergeron said that such clouds would contain both water droplets and ice crystals, and because water does not instantly freeze at 0 deg.C in may exist in a supercooled state.
The ice crystals and supercooled water coexist in the cloud with the water either evaporating or joining with the ice crystal to make a larger crystal, the more this happens the faster and heavier the crystal grows and the faster it ascends the cloud, eventually becoming snowflakes.
The falling ice crystals that are now snowflakes will melt and become rain if they encounter an air temperature on their way down that is = or + 4 deg. C

But not all rain starts off as snowflakes. In the tropical regions the clouds do not get as high, and as such are free from ice, they are "warm clouds". The rain here is produced by Langmuir's Chain Reaction, or more commonly the collission and coalescence process.
The water droplets collide and coalesce due to atmospheric turbulence and convection.

Here's a biographical piece on Langmuir: >> Irving Langmuir: Biography from Answers.com

An article on the Bergeron process: >> Bergeron process - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Michaelangelica]

Thanks turtle
It seems rain needs some sort of nucleus to form around, ice, dust ?, or 'something' exhuded from plants or trees(?)
Most of Oz (75%?) would be fairly tropical so I doubt if there would be ice clouds in those areas.

The CSIRO did (historically) a lot of work on cloud seeding
But it seems to have been discarded as dead end science these days

Cloud Seeding

It seems my dandruff may be making a contribution however!
Airborne dandruff can turn on rain
News in Science - Airborne dandruff can turn on rain - 01/04/2005

The researchers turned up a collection of human and animal skin particles, fur, fragments of plants, pollen, spores, bacteria, algae, fungi and viruses.

The particles ranged in size from tens of nanometres to several millimetres, and varied depending on the time of year. For instance, pollen was more common in spring, and in winter there was more decaying cellular matter.

As much as 80% of the particulate matter collected was biological in origin, ranging from 15% over the Swiss Alps to 80% from the Amazon and Lake Baikal in the autumn.

On average, 20 to 25% of the aerosol material they collected was biological.

I still suspect that plants may be deliberately producing rain.
If they can talk to other plants with chemical messages-why not?

Plant Essential Oils are very volatile and are usually found in Mediterranean or hotter climates.
Are they a part of the story? aromatic molecules would be nano sized.

There is frequently a symbiotic relationship between plants and soil 'wee beasties'
Ground-based Bacteria May Produce Rain
Ground-based Bacteria May Produce Rain - Science - InfoNIAC

and
if you think my speculations are weird, look at this article
Claim of alien cells in rain may fit historical accounts: study
Claim of alien cells in rain may fit historical accounts: study

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

if you think my speculations are weird, look at this article
Claim of alien cells in rain may fit historical accounts: study
Claim of alien cells in rain may fit historical accounts: study

This kind of dove tails with the idea that alien life forms or life forms different from regular earth life may not show up as life because we only look for DNA and if it isn't just like ours then it doesn't register. nanobes could be another type of life as well.

Nanobe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nanobacterium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yet another bit of weirdness from downunder

Microscopy-UK full menu of microscopy and microscopes on the web

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

. nanobes could be another type of life as well.

Nanobe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

# It is a living organism (contains DNA or some analogue, and reproduces).

O dear, I am just still trying to understand DNA and they do this to me. An analogue of DNA! I have only just (almost) sorted Mitochondrial DNA in my head.

I should have put this in strange claims??

Microscopy-UK full menu of microscopy and microscopes on the web

Nanobe Colony 35,000x

A colony!!
So they have a Sociology Department?!

Yet another bit of weirdness from downunder

Sure is; I'm gobsmaked.

This is a really difficult question I've asked.

Today, I was looking at whether bush fires here might cause rain.(weather?)
When Captain Cook first sailed up the East Coast of Australia, he commented on the number of bushfires he saw.
Aboriginal people used fire to farm/terra-form Australia. So much so, and for so long, that plants evolved to cope with the Aboriginal use of fire.
Many native seeds won't germinate even unless you blow smoke at them. You can even buy bottles of "Smokey Water" at plant nurseries to soak you native seeds in to make them germinate!
So I came across this article on bushfires and Eucalyptus.
http://www.bushfirecrc.com/search/do...ll%20small.pdf
On Volatile Organic Emissions ("VOCs") from Eucalyptus and Other fuels
and
yes these do make cloud condensation nuclei.
They further make the amazing statement that many of these VOCs are produced in the ROOTS of the plants.
So is there also a "Wee Beastie" involvement in the soil?
(The Eucalyptus oil in the leaves is highly toxic -protection?- and highly flammable -to make rain? cool the air?? and highly voatile-to make VOCs for rain?).
The "Blue Mountains" a rugged plateau West of Sydney looks blue becase of the amount of eucalyptus essential oil in the air.
So it/they changes light in some way?


This from another of my haunts The Permaculture Forums

Hi Jana,
It is an interesting idea. Eucalypts have one of the highest volatile
organic compound (VOC) emission rates of any plant species.

Trees can control clouds/rain through these VOC because they form cloud
condensation nuclei (CCN) that provide a starting point for all cloud
droplets (i.e. a surface for water to condense on).

We typically think of forests increasing CCN and thus more clouds/rain. But at some point a large number of CCN will actually decrease rain because you have many surfaces and not enough water- so the result is many small droplets that are too small to fall to the surface.
cheers,
Alex

Permaculture discussion forum • View topic - How can the Murray Darling System be saved for ever?


Back to Nanobes.
Then, also today another article on clouds
Cloud, fog and precipitation
and
The cloud classification system
I never realised there were so many types and at so many different heights.
So you would have to look at each different type of cloud and how it effects/affects weather. Are plants that smart?

So has anyone gone up in the stratosphere, sky, clouds, atmosphere, space to look for your nanobe babies?

This is all my brain can cope with for now.

[Michaelangelica]

I should put this in "Water where will it come from in 2050?" thread but as we we discussing this I thought you may be interested in this new, long-term research on cloud seeding.

Tasmanians manage to 'grow rain'

Tuesday, 03 February 2009
Monash University

The cloud seeding operation has resulted in more rainfall, according to new research.

A team of researchers at Monash University has released a new analysis of precipitation records from the long-term cloud seeding operation in Tasmania that shows a promising increase in rainfall during periods of seeding.

The team worked with Hydro Tasmania analysing the cloud seeding activity over the hydroelectric catchment area in central Tasmania for more than four decades - from 1960 to 2005.

Associate Professor Steven Siems, Faculty of Science said the analysis used monthly rainfall figures in the catchment area where the seeding took place and compared it with data from nearby control areas.

"A number of independent statistical tests showed a consistent increase of at least 5 per cent in monthly rainfall over the catchment area. This is the first time that an independent analysis of cloud seeding data over several decades has shown a statistically significant increase in rainfall," Associate Professor Siems said.

Tasmanians manage to 'grow rain'(ScienceAlert)

[Michaelangelica]

Lightning starts new bushfires in Grampians
The Bureau of Meteorology says thunderstorms moving across Victoria have produced lightning which has sparked new bushfires in the Grampians.
Forecaster Phil King says unfortunately the storms are not producing much rain.

"The top fall I can see at the moment is 4 mm at Pound Creek in South Gippsland. Generally one one or two millimetres of rain," he said
. . .
The fires in Gippsland were so intense yesterday that they formed their own thunderstorms, with microbursts of intense winds.

Lightning starts new bushfires in Grampians - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

[Michaelangelica]

This seems to be a 'pump theory' based on the physics of moving air pressure rather than nucleii
It seems to imply that coastal forests are most important in Australia.
These are the ones we mainly chop down as we like to live near the sea.
Revolutionary new theory overturns modern meteorology with claim that forests move rain

Revolutionary new theory overturns modern meteorology with claim that forests move rain
Jeremy Hance
mongabay.com
April 01, 2009

Largely ignored by scientific community, new theory could change how future generations view forests


Two Russian scientists, Victor Gorshkov and Anastassia Makarieva of the St. Petersburg Nuclear Physics, have published a revolutionary theory that turns modern meteorology on its head, positing that forests—and their capacity for condensation—are actually the main driver of winds rather than temperature. While this model has widespread implications for numerous sciences, none of them are larger than the importance of conserving forests, which are shown to be crucial to 'pumping' precipitation from one place to another. The theory explains, among other mysteries, why deforestation around coastal regions tends to lead to drying in the interior.
. . .
“Forests maintain high evaporation which gets the cycle going,” Sheil told Mongabay.com, ”this can explain how deep wet continental interiors gain high rainfall”.

To explain the 'pump' theory in detail, Mongabay.com turned to Makarieva and Gorshkov:

“In any pump (e.g., water pump that pumps water into the swimming pool or your breathing pump [lungs] that pumps air into your body) a drop of fluid pressure is created, so that the fluid streams towards the area with lowered pressure.
In the case of biotic pump of atmospheric moisture this drop of air pressure is created by water vapor condensation.
That is, pressure of air around us is proportional to the number of gas molecules in a given volume.
Condensation of water vapor leads to the disappearance of vapor molecules and results in air pressure drop.”
The drop in air pressure is particularly important since it is one of the clear cut observations that “has been routinely overlooked” by conventional meteorologists, according to Murdiyarso and Sheil's paper.
. . .
“An actively evaporating natural rainforest will work as a pump continuously supporting lower air pressure above its canopy and thus drawing moist air from the [the ocean]” says Makarieva and Gorshkov. If the rainforest is cutoff or destroyed, water will simply stop being pumped from the ocean and will cease inland, leading to desertification.
. . .
And then comes the statement that has meteorologists rolling in their graves: “this indicates that water vapor condensation is not only a previously unaccounted, but the major, compared to temperature gradients, driver of atmospheric circulation on Earth.”
. . .
For a specific example Makarieva and Gorshkov point to prehistoric Australia. They believe the pump “explains the enigmatic conversion of Australian forests to deserts that roughly coincides in timing with the appearance of the first people.”
According to Makarieva and Gorshkov, when these early peoples burned small bands of forests along the coast where they first inhabited, “the internal inland forests were cut off from the ocean (the tube of the pump cut off) and underwent rapid desertification.”

Simply put a loss of coastal forests—which had been driving rain from the ocean into the interior—caused Australia's current dry climate. If Australia hadn't lost those coastal forests, its environment may be entirely different today—and would not be suffering from extreme and persistent droughts.
. . .
the implications for global warming are many, including re-evaluation of past ecosystem responses to changes in climate. However on the practical end, the new theory grants a new role for the importance of forests. While they have long been recognized as 'carbon sinks' they would now need to be recognized as the 'bringers of rain'—vital for maintaining a stable and productive climate for every species on earth.
. . .
Sheil, who is helping to bring the theory to light says, “I am convinced [the pump theory] deserves very careful scrutiny and not the general dismissal that has happened thus far.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g9...01-0885a-1.jpg

Water and Mineral Transport

How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves? - Naked Scientists Discussion Forum

Solar Water Still and Pump

i just read this but can't find the article now !!

“Negative pressure” helps synthetic trees to drag water to new heights
Purchase the full-text article

References and further reading may be available for this article. To view references and further reading you must purchase this article.

Justin Mullins

Available online 13 September 2008.

Chemists have for the first time succeeded in reproducing the mechanism that trees use to draw water from their roots to their leaves

[maikeru]

As I understand it, plants have a major impact on helping to create rain, as your articles show Michaelangelica. Microbes, bits of organic matter like waste, dust, or debris, viruses, etc. all can be blown up into the air acting as condensation nuclei for water vapour. These are microbes living in, on, and around (or under in the soil) plants. If the plants die, the microbes usually die back and disappear too. And of course plants do move water around places like pumps, from subsoils or deep in the ground to the surface or higher, through the processes of transpiration and evaporation. They are critical for this, as this article on plant roots shows:

Root - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just look at how deep, how expansive, how complete some of those root systems are. Trees, shrubs and bushes, and certain deep-rooted plants act as "bridges" or "conduits" between many different layers and worlds, moving water, minerals, and elements between them. Also, in plant biomass water is stored and conserved, when it might otherwise evaporate quickly, be lost through fast drainage or flooding, etc. All of these tendencies directly and indirectly, IMO, create positive feedback loops for the production of rain and other precipitation.

More stuff on microbe contributions to rain making:

Breakthrough Research On Ocean Algae Could Lead To Freeze- And Drought-Resistant Crops
Evidence Of 'Rain-making' Bacteria Discovered In Atmosphere And Snow
Potential Sources Of 'Rain-Making' Bacteria In The Atmosphere Identified
Pseudomonas syringae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Michaelangelica]

New Super Detergent brings its own water!

'Curiouser and curiouser!' cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English);
New Scientist Jan 2009 p 11 says researchers have found detergents in clouds.
Bacteria, amazing little critters, secrete surfactants, we think to transport nutrients though membranes. research has shown that they also break down the water surface tension of water better than any substance in nature.
"Noziere . . .. .speculates (that the bacteria) evolved the ability to summon water from the sky to help them survive."
'Curiouser and curiouser!'
" 'The next step will be to work out how these substances get up into the clouds', says Andri Andreae of the Max Planck Institute of Chemistry in Mainz Germany"
Yes and won't that be an interesting story:-
Look up in the sky! Is it a bird? Is it a plane?
No, it's a baby bacteria having a bubble-bath!"

I am reminded of the millions? billions? of frogs killed by the surfactant in Monsanto's Roundup (glyphosate). Still the company refuses to state what their new surfactant is. It is not an 'active ingredient' and by law they don't need to reveal their "trade secret" they say.

I am reminded also that many plants produce soap like subsatnces called 'saponens'

It seems surfactants may play a much greter role in world ecology that anyone ever dreamed possible.

that pic of detergent was a tiny thumnail. Anyway of reducing its size?