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Old 05-26-2009   #1 (permalink)
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Question Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

While effectively absent for the past year, I've been following threads of interest for some time, unable to participate due to extremely slow dial-up only available to me far out on Colorado's eastern plains and the near constant demands for care-giving. Finally equipped with wireless broadband. Like night and day. Glad to be back.

However, it seems the more I learn, the more I discover I don't know or understand. Help is needed.

I don't know if Earth has an iron core or a hydrogen core, albeit the latter seems more likely to me; given the constant loss of hydrogen into space which appears to be physical evidence that some sort of hydrogen reservoir exists within Earth. It is the unquestioning belief of many that Earth has an iron core that is puzzling to me.

First, I submit the following as a reasonable statement: Currently, temperatures and materials within Earth's core are totally unknown. Exact determination by physical inspection still remains impossible. There are various theories, assumptions and calculations. Some are logical, some illogical, some absurd, but in today's final analysis, it seems to me that no one really knows for sure.

As best I can understand from recent research: Earth's magnetic field convinced early theorists that Earth's core was iron, because, at that time, only iron was known to be magnetic. [Hydrogen's magnetic and metallic properties were unknown until recently.]

In 1906, seismic analysis determined Earth's core was 16% of its volume and this was estimated to contain 32% of Earth's mass; but only if the core was largely iron.

Unfortunately, iron only constitutes 1.1% of all known elements in the cosmos, yet iron is considered to be five times more abundant just within Earth's crust.

To date, two imaginative theories seem to be most popular as explanations for how the theorized enormous excess of iron came to be in Earth's core:

The Grand Bombardment Theory assumes a swarm, consisting of billions and billions (?) of iron-rich planetesimals (micro-planets) bombarded a smaller proto-Earth over a short (?) period of time. These iron-rich planetesimals supposedly added considerable mass and made Earth completely molten through their concentrated impacts within the short (?) period of time. Then, gravity supposedly forced (only) molten iron and nickel into Earth's core, vaporizing the hydrogen originally deposited there when Earth condensed within a spinning mass of dust and gases; largely hydrogen. The vaporized core hydrogen is then assumed to have been blown away by solar winds.

I hope I stated the Bombardment assumption correctly. This is what I was taught in college.

However, it seems to me Earth is a relatively insignificant mass in an immense volume of space, orbiting between Sun and Jupiter; whose individual gravitational attractions greatly exceeds that of proportionately minuscule Earth. Therefore, it seems to me the vast majority of iron-rich planetesimals wandering within our galaxy would much more likely have been attracted to either the Sun or Jupiter and largely ignored Earth.

This appears evident in the fact that neither the Sun or Jupiter contain much iron; apparently even less than the cosmic proportion. This fact alone appears to make it impossible for any swarm of planetesimals to have even existed; iron-rich or stony. It also appears to me that it is more likely for a swarm of planetesimals to be only a figment of someone's imagination; fabricated to support a logical assumption which lacks physical proof.

Then we are left with the problem of where did all these billions of planetesmials come from and how were they formed largely of iron. All of which just seems just like more assumptions to prove an assumption to me.

More recently, we were offered the Collision Theory, which assumes a smaller proto-Earth collided with an even smaller planet containing a relatively enormous iron core. Then, these planets supposedly melted together and the smaller planet's iron core became Earth's core; while a portion was flung into space and ended up condensing into Earth's moon. How the smaller planet developed an iron core is just as unexplained and this scenario appears equally unlikely; albeit very imaginative.

Does anyone know of a more plausible theory of how Earth developed a core containing such a enormous excess of iron?

I found the following interesting, especially since no swarms of planetesimals were observed:

Scientific FrontLine / Hubble Observations Confirm that Planets Form from Disks Around Stars

May 3, 2009: Hubble Observations Confirm that Planets Form from Disks Around Stars

More than 200 years ago, the philosopher Emmanuel Kant first proposed that planets are born from disks of dust and gas that swirl around their home stars. Though astronomers have detected more than 200 extrasolar planets and have seen many debris disks around young stars, they have yet to observe a planet and a debris disk around the same star.

Now, NASA's Hubble Space Telescope, in collaboration with ground-based observatories, has at last confirmed what Kant and scientists have long predicted: that planets form from debris disks around stars.

The Hubble observations by a team of astronomers led by G. Fritz Benedict and Barbara E. McArthur of the University of Texas at Austin show for the first time that a planet is aligned with its star's circumstellar disk of dust and gas. The planet, detected in 2000, orbits the nearby Sun-like star Epsilon Eridani, located 10.5 light-years from Earth in the constellation Eridanus. The planet's orbit is inclined 30 degrees to Earth, the same angle at which the star's disk is tilted. The results will appear in the November issue of the Astronomical Journal.
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Old 05-27-2009   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

My assumption on this matter based off of light research is that our star collected piles of dust and gas from the earlier stages of its life. Some of this dust and gas would likely be elements of heavier properties like iron created from dead and exploded stars.

By chance, our lucky star managed to collect a high iron content cloud other gases and dusts. considering the volume of space around the solar system relative to the size of the planets, this cloud must have been extremely dispersed.

I could expect that as this mixture of elements orbited the sun they formed into a series of rings, consisting mainly of one type of material. Not much different the look of saturns rings, and the gas separations on saturn and jupiter.

The heavier elements formed orbital rings nearer to the sun. Mars and Earth both contain a high level of iron, and it is interesting to note how close their orbital rings are... Which could suggest that this zone around the sun was a high Iron ring.

Although I don't know very much on the subject, it seems logical to me that the sun was formed by an entirely different area and cloud of dust...where later, it collected material for planets.

Interesting.. I think I will do a some studying in this area.. I don't know much about it myself.


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Old 05-27-2009   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Hi there, Charlie - and welcome back.

I remember we had this very same discussion last year sometime.

And the same answers apply.

The Earth does not have a hydrogen core. Density measurements conclusively exclude hydrogen forming the mass of the Earth's core.

When the sun ignited, after having condensed from the proto-stellar cloud that made up this solar system of ours, the lightest material got blown outward. That's why you have rocky planets in the interior of the solar system, and gas giants to the outside.

Yes, certainly - hydrogen makes up the bulk of our solar system. But the bulk of it is concentrated in the sun, and the gas giants.

Judging by the composition of what remnants from the planet-forming days we find on Earth, the leftovers of meteorites and such that are the detritus of our solar system's early days, the bulk of the inner planets are made of iron and nickle. Apart from meteorites, the density of the planet fits in neatly with the proposition that Earth has an iron core. That, also, is ignoring Earth's handy magnetic field, which is also an iron artifact. Or, for that matter, the fact that hydrogen is simply lighter than iron, and will rise, while iron will sink. I can go on, but the fact remains that the Earth's core does not consist of hydrogen.


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Old 05-27-2009   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

How would you propose hydrogen could migrate to the core? Hydrogen is not a metal unless in it under extreme pressure. metallic hydrogen is not stable, you cannot have a bare piece of metallic hydrogen floating around. There simply isn't a mechanism that would allow Earth to have a hydrogen core. The solar system is a unusual place, the Sun has a higher metal content than most stars. Even Jupiter is thought to have a metal rock core surrounded by liquid metallic hydrogen, not a hydrogen core.


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Last edited by Moontanman; 05-27-2009 at 07:19 AM..
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Old 05-27-2009   #5 (permalink)
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Exclamation Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieO View Post
...
More than 200 years ago, the philosopher Emmanuel Kant first proposed that planets are born from disks of dust and gas that swirl around their home stars. Though astronomers have detected more than 200 extrasolar planets and have seen many debris disks around young stars, they have yet to observe a planet and a debris disk around the same star....
Erhm...until recently at any rate. Baby planet found around star HL Tau - Telegraph
Quote:
A baby planet has been glimpsed by astronomers in a "womb" of dust and debris around a young star. ...
Do we really need to start a new thread on all this? At the very least, let's link to the past discussions.
Consider Hydrogen for Earth's Core

Hydrogen escape into space, how much?


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Old 05-27-2009   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Wikipedia -- Earth:

Mean radius = 6,371.0 km
Mass = 5.9736 × 10^24 kg
Mean density = 5.5153 g·cm−3

Wikepedia -- Iron:

Density (near r.t.) = 7.874 g·cm−3
Liquid density at m.p. = 6.98 g·cm−3

...at pressures close to those at the center of the Earth (3.2 to 3.4 million atmospheres)..., hydrogen is still not a true alkali metal, because of the non-zero band gap.

The density of liquid Hydrogen at 20K is only 0.07 g·cm−3

The density of solid Hydrogen, I cannot find (yet), but is unlikely to be greater than 10 times the density of LH2. So, let's assume worst case, and call it 0.7 g·cm−3

Allow that about 1/2 (or more) of the Earth's volume is a variety of solid and liquid rocks, like basalt at 3.0 g·cm−3.
To achieve an average density for the whole planet of 5.5 g·cm−3,
the core of the planet needs a density between 7 and 8 g·cm−3

The density of Iron (depending on phase and pressure) is between 7 and 8 g·cm−3

There is NO CHANCE at all that Hydrogen, in ANY form, at ANY pressure, could be more than 0.7 g·cm−3, and therefore could constitute the bulk of Earth's core. It would have to be at least 10, and probably 20 or 25, TIMES DENSER.

NO CHANCE. NO WAY. The Earth's core is not Hydrogen. It is Iron.

And NO, we do not need another thread on this very silly, stupid subject. It has all been said before. We've gone over the numbers and the physics until we're numb. Every claim of Core=Hydrogen has been easily and trivially debunked.


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Last edited by Pyrotex; 05-27-2009 at 11:08 AM..
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Old 05-27-2009   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Two other indicators of the contents of the interior of the earth are seismological evidence, and chemical evidence. The crust is deficient in iridium. The element bonds well to iron and has been moved to the core of the earth. An iron core fits with many observations.

Quote:
Some are logical, some illogical, some absurd, but in today's final analysis, it seems to me that no one really knows for sure.
When you mention that the universe is 0.1% iron (you wrote 1.1%) you have to realize that is a huge amount since 98% of the universe is hydrogen or helium. Only 2% of the universe is not those 2 elements. So iron is about 5% of everything that is not H or He.
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Old 05-27-2009   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Take a look at jupiter... Where is the hydrogen located on it?

ITS HUGE! and yet, still the gas has not formed a giant molten planet. It has a very thick atmosphere of gases, and to my understanding, the heavier gasses are nearer to the core.


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Old 05-27-2009   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Quote:
And NO, we do not need another thread on this very silly, stupid subject. It has all been said before. We've gone over the numbers and the physics until we're numb. Every claim of Core=Hydrogen has been easily and trivially debunked.
Hey!! I learned something... stupid subject

hahah


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Old 05-27-2009   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Belief in Earth's Iron Core still puzzling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrotex View Post
The density of solid Hydrogen, I cannot find (yet), but is unlikely to be greater than 10 times the density of LH2. So, let's assume worst case, and call it 0.7 g·cm−3
I think you're spot on—metallic hydrogen between 3 and 4 Mbar looks to be between .45 and 1.3 g/cm^3.

-source
Quote:
In 1973, a group of Russian experimenters may have produced metallic hydrogen at a pressure of 2.8 Mbar. At the transition the density changed from 1.08 to 1.3 g/cm^3

Hydrogen
So, I agree—there doesn't seem to be any way a metallic hydrogen core could contribute the necessary mass to account for earth's total density.

~modest


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Last edited by modest; 05-27-2009 at 07:56 PM..
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